Category Archives for "FaceBook"

May 02

3 Ways To Use FaceBook Audience Insights For Higher ROI’s

By charles kirkland | FaceBook

High ROI's using Facebook Audience Insights.

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When it comes to traffic, FaceBook doesn’t have a shortage of it.  The problem is marketers struggle to turn clicks into sales.  We can blame a lot of things like the human attention span, bad visitors, etc.

But the fastest way to crack the FaceBook success game is to start with the right targets. Today I want to show you exactly how I find the highest converting ad targets to use on and off of FaceBook.

Dec 04

Rick Mulready & Charles Kirkland discuss the future of FaceBook Ads

By charles kirkland | FaceBook , Podcast


Charles Kirkland: Hey, this is Charles Kirkland. I hope everybody is doing great today, or this evening, depends on where you’re at, when you’re listening to this podcast. Now, I’ve got a good friend of mine, Rick Moretti. And guys, I am slurring a little bit today. I got bit in the face by a spider – on the side of the face – so, my mouth is a little numb. Certain things aren’t working. So, I’m not drunk. I’m not intoxicated. I’m just moving slow. So, Rick, how’s it going?


Rick Moretti: It’s good man. Sounds like a little bit better than you, buddy.


Charles: I tell you the look- I always have this kind of look. So, it’s one of those things. So, first of all, tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to. I mean, you know, what do you specialize in and what have you been up to?


Rick: Yeah. I specialize in Facebook advertising. And I’ve been in the online advertising space since 2000. So, a little over 15 years now. And I was in the corporate world for about 12 of those years. And worked for the likes of AOL, Yahoo, Funny or Die, a company called Vibrant Media, doing all different forms of paid advertising, mostly on the sales side. So, I was selling to the big brands around the world – four of these big brands.


So, right around 2010 I sort of transitioned. I was still in the corporate world, but on the side I started teaching myself Facebook ads. And, you know, I really saw the opportunity there that small businesses had to, not only build a community but really, targeted with all the information that Facebook gives them that they make available to us advertisers.


So, sort of fast forward, I’ve been doing Facebook ads now for the past five years and I teach Facebook ads to entrepreneurs and small businesses. I have a couple of training courses. I have a podcast called The Art of Paid Traffic, where we talk about all forms of paid traffic, where you have been a guest twice on that show. And we of course talk a lot about Facebook ads on that show, but we also talk about all different types of paid traffic. So, it’s a lot of fun, man.


Charles: Dude, I’ll tell you. I love your podcast. I mean I remember the first time scrolling through, I’m like, the graphics are great. But all of your stuff has a very clean, professional look. And listening to the content – you’re one of the few people who I subscribe to who I want to hear on my podcast. And I’m like, why doesn’t he do more? He needs more podcasts.


Rick: I appreciate that, man.


Charles: So, I love your stuff. Now, Facebook’s changing. At the end of the day, we’re looking at an evolution probably similar to what Google had, or really, any traffic network from that standpoint. Where do you think Facebook is going; and what does that hold for small businesses, marketers, online marketers; and how do you think it’s all going to shake out?


Rick: Yeah. I mean and they’re now focusing, first and foremost, on value. You know, they want to protect the user experience at all cost. So, they’re first and foremost, they want to protect the user experience. And so, from an advertisers perspective, what that means is adding value first – focusing on value and giving people an experience where they’re able to connect with you, start a relationship with you as the advertiser.


And you as the advertiser, just giving them value, helping them out. Depending upon whatever your niche is, helping them with the form of value that they’re going to find helpful to them and their business in their everyday life. So the more that you can do that, that’s really what Facebook wants us advertisers to focus on.


Of course, we can still, you know, go into- we instill [unclear – 04:03] composing our email list and generating leads and all that stuff, but we want to make sure that we’re doing it from a perspective of, you know, not sending people directly to a sale; not sending people to, hey, just opt in for this free thing and you know, and then all of a sudden they get spammed via email. You know, it’s focusing on value first, and then building that relationship with that person, and then, getting them to your sales funnel.


Charles: It’s funny, the way you describe this is like an 180 of what I see everybody else doing. And you talked about, literally, giving value, giving content first. I mean, do you think the days of just the, you know, opt into my page and die – do you think those days are over with, or do you think it still applies? What are your thoughts on that?


Rick: I do think it still applies. I mean you could still certainly send people directly to an opt in, whether that opt in is for a free download, or a webinar registration, or whatever it might be – if you’re going to [unclear – 05:08] by Facebook’s ad policies. You know, having things like a privacy policy link on your landing page, having it be really clear both in the ad and on the landing page has to do in order to get whatever you are offering them – just being really clear in your language, having a link out to someother form of content that you have-


So basically, giving them the opportunity to, if they want to, once they land on your landing page, make sure there’s a clear opportunity for them to navigate away from the page if necessary. Facebook has cracked down on those things. So, you can still do that. You can still send people directly to a lead generation, whether it’s a landing page or whatever that might be, but you have to make sure that you’re doing it within their guidelines.


Charles: And that makes sense. I think at the end of the day I see so many people- they’re like, oh, here’s my landing page. Opt in. You know, it’s not- people aren’t excited to get an email. AOL no longer says, you’ve got an email. It’s like now you’ve got, you know, like clear out your email. It’s incredible by any stretch of the imagination.


Now, with that said, okay, so we’re saying pretty much give some content. Give value. Be explicit in what we’re doing. Now, if somebody’s brand new to Facebook and they want to get started on this, would you suggest putting out content first, or would you suggest an old-fashioned squeeze page?


Rick: I would recommend starting out with content first. And I say that in a sense of, if you’re just starting out, start to build that relationship with your ideal target audience. And if you’re just starting out, maybe you don’t have an email list yet. Or maybe you don’t have much traffic coming to your website. So, you can leverage Facebook’s [interest – 06:54] targeting, which is the- ever heard of the sterotypical type of targeting, when we think of Facebook targeting we think of what they call their interest targeting, meaning, I want to target such-and-such fan page. You know, what other kind of Facebook page that is similar to my niche or competitor in my space – that sort of thing.


So, start off by targeting that way and looking at [unclear – 07:17] people to content. And then, build that relationship with them. You can have an opt in on that page with the content – that’s totally fine. But then you can also leverage Facebook’s re-targeting where you’re building an audience of people who are coming to that content, consuming it, and then you can re-target them with relevant offers that way. So, I would start off sending people directly to content.


Charles: Oh, that makes perfect sense. So, content first. Retarget to ffers, squeeze pages, you know, anything that at that point, once that relationship’s built.


Rick: Yep. Exactly.


Charles: {Unclear – 07:53] a dating scenario. You’re not going marry me on the first date.


Rick: Right. Exactly.


Charles: Perfect


Rick: And Charles, you and I are talking actually for my show, the other day about this, is when you follow their guide lines, your ads are going to perform better. You’re going to have higher conversion rates and the performance of your ads are likely going to be performing better when you’re abiding by Facebook’s policies and following what they say. If you don’t, that’s when you’re going to run into problems where the performance isn’t as good. Your costs are higher. So, it’s better to do that and make sure that you are abiding by their policy [unclear – 08:30] results that way.


Charles: It’s funny. I think so many people think well, this is the way such-and-such, insert name. They do it, so it’s the way I’m going to do it. And the reality of it is, if the end user who doesn’t know you from Adam’s housecat, they opt in and you’re forcing them to sit through a 45-, an hour, an hour-thirty minute webinar to buy something-


Rick: Yeah


Charles: There’s a video with no controls. No nothing. I mean, an hour on the internet is like an eternity.


Rick: It is. Yeah.


Charles: you know, I’m thinking my gosh, you know, there’s so any other things I could be doing in an hour. Boom. I’m just leaving it. I think the reality of it is, the end users, they’re expecting everything to is given to them. And you know, if they want to go basically through your video, scrub through it, they want to see it. If you’ve got an offer, they want to see it. They’re actually in control of the user experience.


And you lock them, or you block them, or you give them 35 and a half exit pops, it creates that negative user experience. And the question we have to ask is, what is a user worth to Facebook? Because I would imagin if my wife- I’m no longer using Facebook. I’m like screw that. I’m not using it either. It’s a waste of my time. You know, what would be the trickle-down effect of that?


Rick: Yeah. Exactly


Charles: And, you know, and I think that’s one thing that a lot of people just don’t- your dollar or two dollar click doesn’t mean anything for them to lose maybe a person who’s equal to $500 a year – something of that nature.


Rick: Yep


Charles: Makes perfect sense. Well speaking of that, I mean, do you feel that Facebook- how do you feel Facebook really should be integrated into with the overall marketing strategy? So, if Facebook wasn’t the only thing. If you were doing potentially, ad words, or retargeting, or Twitter, or something else – how do you feel Facebook fits into that as a piece of the puzzle?


Rick I mean it fits in, especially when you start thinking about the retargeting opportunities, and you know, using it from both Facebook’s retargeting and leveraging other forms of retargeting from a traffic-driving standpoint. So, you could be driving traffic from basically up to, you know, forms of content, landing pages, whatever it might be, and then retargeting those people on YouTube, or on the Google display network, or other forms of retargeting.


And then vice versa, you could be driving traffic from other platforms and then retargeting those people on Facebook. So, Facebook, I think, has an awesome opportunity to be part of your overall holistic marketing approach and not just focusing on one platform. I was listening to one of your episodes the other day. I, unfortunately, don’t remember her name. But you guys were talking about aking sure that you learn one platform, before going onto to try to focus on five or six different platforms. And I think that that’s such a great piece of advice.


And it’s certainly relevant to Facebook ads. Because if you’re going to be doing facebooks ads, learn Facebook ads and then figure out, once you ge to know them and start to see some success with them, then you can look to incorporate, okay, how do I se them- how do I leverage them in my overall marketing funnel as just one platform. Okay?


So, then whenever I go onto another platform, how do I leverage Facebook again, from that retargeting standpoint, both from a sending traffic standpoint and retargeting on other platforms, and then other platforms driving to your content or your landing page, and then retargeting them on Facebook?


Charles: And that makes all the sense, I mean, it’s brilliant from that standpoint, because I think a ot of people look at it as a single thing if that makes sense. It’s like oh, well this is the one thing. This is the one event. And the reality of it- and this is just in my mind, at the end of the day,it really has to integrate in with, okay – if you came from Google, you visited my page. Well then, you should be retargeted in Twitter. You should get retargeting in Facebook. You should really get, I would call it a holistic experience.


Rick: Yep


Charles: And I think interestingly enough, and you made a good point earlier when you talked about just that user experience, if the user is P.O.’ed at you, if they have a bad experience at you, your site, something like that, it doesn’t really make a difference at that point, in anything else you do. It’s like, well I had a bad user experience. I’m not going back. And you literally, burn that bridge to make money with them forever.


And at the end of the day, I could just tell you, that completely- and I’ve done that before. Unfortunately, I’m really good at screwing things up. That is a great way to find a lack of profits, sales, and leads. Now if we were to turn around and just say okay. We realize Facebook has value. We need to be involved in it. From a lead generation standpoint, can we just use the same ad we use in Google? I mean, little Johnny has poison ivy. Can I put a poison ivy ad in Google, or would you take a diferent approach to creating those ads inside of Google?


Rick: Very much so. I would look- [unclear – 13:37] I would not be using the same- like you could use the same type of, how should I say this, sort of approach, but the ad on Facebook is going to look very differently. And Facebook does not want you discussing personal attributes of it’s users. So, you can’t say something like, have poison ivy? And then have your solution for it, because you’re insinuating that that use has poison ivy. I mean even though that’s likely true, or it could be true I should say, you can’t insinuate that.


You can’t talk about a personal attribute of somebody. Can’t you say something like overweight? Lose 30 pounds in the next x-amount of time. You can’t say stuff like that. Whereas on Google, and I don’t do many ad words, so I’m not fully up on all the policies there, but you can get away with a lot more stuff from an ad copy perspective as opposed to what you can do on Facebook.


So, yeah. I mean, obsiously the solution is going to be the same, but you’ve got to approach the ad copy and how you’re talking to your ideal target customer differently when it comes to Facebook.


Charles: And that makes perfect sense. Because like in Google, they’re actively searching for the solution to the problem.


Rick: Yeah. Exactly.


Charles: And in Facebook, we’re pretty much saying, surprise I’m here!


Rick: We’re interrupting. Yeah.


Charles: You know, so it’s definitely a different user experience on that. Now, one other question- and I’ve got tons of questions for you. But one of the questions I really want to get to is how important is this whole Facebook tracking? I mean, do I have to use their conversion tracking? It looks wonky. It looks different. I mean, do I need tracking, period? Can I get away with nothing?


Rick: You do. You do need Facebook’s tracking for a couple different reasons. Number one, I mean yeah. You could use Google analytics, for example. You know, or other- a third party platform, but- and that will tell you a number of conversions and so on But you need to use Facebook’s tracking so that Face- [unclear – 15:46] for whatever conversion that you’re looking for.


Because if you’re not using that; if you’re just solely relying on Google analytics or whatever it might be, yeah, you’re going to have the information, but you’re not allowing Facebook to optimize for that conversion. So for example, if I’m trying to get a webinar registration, and I have my conversion pixel on the thank you page after they register, when you’re using Facebook’s pixel like that, you’re telling facebok to optimize for that specific conversion.


So, Facebook’s algorithm, and that’s running in the background, is going to be showing your ad. Once it gets some information for you, once it gains some logic there, it’s going to start to show your ad to more people in that target audience who are most likely to convert based on the information that it’s getting from that conversion tracking pixel. So, you do need to be using, for the best results, you do need to be using Facebook’s conversion pixels.


Charles: Oh, that makes sense. So, let’s say we’re jumping in, brand new. We’ve got our content. We’ve got our squeeze page. We’ve got conversion pixels. The next thing I’m going to ask, and this may be one of those questions like, no, Charles. Don’t ask such a dumb question. Let’s say we do something. We screw up. I mean are we going to get our entire account banned? Or, is it more of a- you did something wrong, or do you- how does that work? Do you like initially get like you’re in a little trouble. Fix it. Or do they say, you’re a low-down, black cat spammer, out of [unclear – 17:15]?


Rick: It depends on what it is. It depends on what you’re doing. You know? If your image has more than 20 percent text on it, and you’ve just done it a couple times. They’re just going to disapprove the ad, and tell you that that’s the issue. And you have to just fix it. And then you can resubmit it for approval. Not a big deal.


Now, each time you have an ad disapproved, or Facebook has an issue, they’re sort of keeping track of all those things. So, and we don’t know over what period of time or how many of those things you have to get on your account before they’ll slap you with a  shut down or anything like that, but just know that Facebook is keeping track of those types of things.


Charles: Speaking of that, talking about shut downs and slaps, let’s go ahead and move to the user. {aside conversation about disconnection}


One of the things we want to talk- but it’s like, okay. So, is my user from 18 to 65 with Visa, MasterCard, American Express, PayPal? Or do I kind of need to be a little more specific when I’m writing my ads?


Rick: What do you mean by that so I can give you the best answer?


Charles: Sure. Let’s just say we’ve got a product. Let’s say we’re selling outdoor hiking boots for men. Can we just pretty much say any guy from 18 to 65? Or can we say male/female? Or do you think we’d be better off narrowing those down to like maybe a certain demographic, a certain age grou, a certain life-style?


Rick: Yeah. The more targeted you can get, the better. Yeah. It obviously comes down to you knowing who your exact target customer is, and knowing as much about that person as possible. And that’s the beauty of Facebook ads is that you can get so targeted. So, leverage it.


You know, get as targeted as you can can so you can reach that target customer. So, yeah. So, the more you can narrow it down, the better. I think that you know, you don’t want to get too, too small you know, where your audience size is 50 people, but you do want- the more targeted that you can get, the better.


Charles: It’s funny that you say that. We recently had some- I know this is weird. I would always break out my mobile campaigns, different from my desktop campaigns.


Rick: Yeah.


Charles: I always break them out. Last month, we’ve just started running them together. And weirdly enough, we’re getting better results.


Rick: Are you?


Charles: Yes. And it doesn’t make sense because logically, they should all be different. There should be a comple, different user experience on the iPad, than an iPhone, than an Android, than a desktop. And it’s weird. Hands down, I would’ve told you no, it would not work. Don’t do it. But we’re getting better results, lumping them together.


Rick: Interesting. So, you’re not seeing that like one of them is driving the cost up? Are you seeing that?


Charles: No. we’re not. That’s the weird part about it. Because when we broke them apart into individual iPhone, iPad, Android, desktop. Then we went to right-hand side desktop. We, you know, the numbers were okay. And I’m like, just screw it. Lump them together. They’re good enough. Created a brand new campaign, lumped together. They did better.


Rick: Interesting.


Charles: Which to me is completely weird, and it contradicts everything I’ve ever taught; my tests and resutls. So, I don’t know if I hit just an anomoly and it just worked? But it worked. I don’t have an answer for it. And I’ll tell you, I’m still completely confused by it to this day.


Rick:  Yeah, man. I think that’s a good lesson in that, you know, ven though you’re going along, and you’re running your campaign in one way, and maybe seeing some results that you’re happy with. It’s always good to start testing out different ways of just setting up the campaign. Like, you don’t have to change any of the parameters. Maybe the set up is a little bit different, and that might give you better results. And what you’re talking about, Charles, is a perect example of that. you know.


And the good thing about it, too, is that Facebook’s reporting does a very good job, like you can break out the placement and find out exactly which one is performing the best. So, if there is one sort of bad apple in the group, if you will, you are able to go back, and take that out, and focus, and optimize more towards the better performing placements.


Charles: Oh absolutely. And the one thing that we’ve been using, we’ve been playing with Ad Espresso. I’ve been a huge [Cory – 21:59] fan forever. He did their reporting to Ad Espresso, a little more visual for me. I can tell you our ROI did go up, I think mainly, because I could make better judgement calls on the reporting. But you know, interestingly enough, like, I’ve always thought like looking at our existing buyer list, they’re 45 to 55. That’s who I’ve always, mainly targeted.


And all of a sudden, that demographic, the price is going up. And I’m like what’s wrong? What’s wrong? And it hit me. Elections. We have to fight the conservative male, usually our buyer, conservative males, 45 up. And I think we just have to fight like the Donald Trumps, the- whoever the politician of the day is. I think that’s causing our- and I know it’s weird, but I think that’s causing our price to go up- or our costs per conversion.


Rick: Well, I don’t think that’s weird at all, because, I mean, I love that you’re aware of that. You know what I mean? You’re aware of, okay, you know what? I’m noticing my costs go up. And you have it down to- you know exactly who your buyer is from an age range and a demographic. So you can look at, okay. Why would that demographic and age rage- what else is going on in the world that could be competing with my targeting, here? So, I think that’s great that you’re noticing that.


Charles: So, it’s just one of those things where, you know, little details like that  like, one of the age brackets- we’re at $3.30 for a webinar lead. Another bracket, we’re at $17 and change. Same ad. Different age bracket. Same group of devices.


Rick: Oh really?


Charles: It’s a learning experience.


Rick: Yeah.


Charles: And I just think like you said, and the problem is, if you’re not deep into it, looking at that – you wouldn’t know that historically, the other age groups has been better.


Rick: Yeah. Exactly.


Charles: Dude. It’s a learning experience. Well, I don’t want to go ahead and keep you too much longer. Anything you’d like to give us before we wrap up? And where can we find out more about Rick?


Rick: Rick is my website. Hop on the email list there, the great [unclear – 24:09] to get information from me and start to build a relationship. Would love to do that with you. Also, The Art of Paid Traffic is the podcast we’re talking about before the normal iTunes, Stitcher, whatever you’re listening to podcasts, you’ll be able to find it there.


Nov 03

The answer is C

By charles kirkland | Adwords , blog , FaceBook

Yesterday’s email hit a big nerve with my readers…beyond the fact that I have no future as a songwriter. Click here to read yesterday’s email.

Moments after hitting send I was flooded with emails telling me that it’s impossible to make $3.98 per lead work. I’m super excited about getting $3.98 per lead with 0 ad optimization because it means the average marketers would stop the campaign and move on to something else.

“The end goal of starting a campaign is to make money. In fact, most people are only 1 successful funnel away from a 6 figure business.”

You seldom make a positive ROI out of the gate and your lead cost will be 3-4 times what you expect.

So what do you do?

A.) Give up and create a new campaign?
B.) Suck it up and adjust your funnel to ROI with your lead cost?
C.) Dig into the ad reports and see what’s not converting and optimize your campaign?
D.) None of the above?

The answer is C. Don’t go around tinkering with your funnel. There is a time and place for that; in the early stages isn’t the time.

Start creating different ads for men and women. Men and women respond to different images and copy. The image of some guy fighting a shark may appeal to men but not women.

Guys see the images and it represents excitement, fun, and adventures. Women see it and think somebody’s son is about to be eaten by a giant shark. Somebody save him.

Here is another example from the dating and relationship niche.

Women fall in love because of emotional connections while men are typically more visual. Please segment out males and females and show them different ads.

Make sense?

This is just the tip of the iceberg of what we are going to cover this Thursday training class. Make sure you sign up and secure your seat.

Nov 02

Wasting Money with FB Ads?

By charles kirkland | blog , FaceBook

I think today’s subject line sounds like the start of a slow moving country song. Close your eyes and clear your mind and you can almost hear the words pouring out of some dusty jukebox speakers.

This is what it would sound like.

I’m a online marketer working as hard as I can.

Trying to break even with my FaceBook ads.

Yet nothing I do seems to work.

No matter what I can’t seem to make it work.

I bought every online course trying to make it work, but the bills are piling up.


I’m more of a talk radio guy myself, and I really don’t listen to the radio often so this is about what I imagine it would sound like. But there is a lot of truth in that song. The problem is about 70% of your money is wasted with every new campaign.

For example, I have a new campaign where the 45-54 age group is costing me $21.01 per lead while the 35-44 age group is $3.98 per lead. Most people would freak out and kill the campaign and start over, which is the wrong thing to do.

You need to dig down into the campaign and see why leads cost so much. Could it be males convert better than females or was it my page didn’t display correctly on mobile devices?

Those are the keys to taking a losing campaign and creating a winner. Thursday I’m going to show you some of the little things that make or break FaceBook campaigns.

Click here to signup

Oct 30

I Have Dyslexia & ADD

By charles kirkland | FaceBook , Uncategorized

Most people don’t realize it, but I have dyslexia and ADD on top of that.

It means that while most people read left to right I read right to left while being hyperactive at the same time.  It certainly made for some “fun” times as a kid growing up in the public school system of the 70’s and 80’s.  As a teen my parents bought me the Hooked On Phonics program and a speed reading program to help.

While it helped somewhat, it didn’t cure anything.

Lucky for me by the time the school system got around to being able to label me, I didn’t see it as a disability or problem but a gift.  I’m able to consume massive amounts of information in a very short amount of time if it’s visual.  So I can watch somebody do something and I can repeat it without any problem.  But I still have trouble reading FB ad reports.

I’m visual in the way I learn, so having rows of numbers leaves me with a headache.  I can’t use spreadsheets to save my life.

How many times have you seen me open a spreadsheet to teach you anything?

So how am I able to manage and grow my business?

Less than 5 feet away from my desk is somebody who breaks down all the numbers and helps me figure out what’s working.  I need visual reports saying if something’s working or not.
That’s why I freaked out when I started testing AdEspresso with my FaceBook ads because their reporting is visual–graphic with bright colors.

For the first time ever I can make my own decisions and now I can tell what’s working at a glance. I feel like Christmas came early.  Because I’m a stark raving fan of AdEspresso, I got the founder on a call to do a podcast with me.

Listen to the podcast and to claim your free trial to AdEspresso.

Oct 26

How Zach Johnson Funnel Stacks For A Higher LTV

By charles kirkland | Adwords , Agency , blog , FaceBook , PPC Pay Per Click

I was able to get Zach Johnson to explain how he is able to generate $100 in revenue per email address from his funnel with the Funnel Stacking Method.  This podcast is packed with advanced and high level strategies that can level the playing field if you apply them.


Total Time [32:51] Charles Kirkland: Hey. This is Charles. I hope everybody’s having a great day or even depending on where you’re at. And if you’re not, after this interview, if you’re blood’s not flowing; if you don’t have a million ideas going on, get your pulse checked. Most likely, you’ve turned into a zombie and you’re not aware of it yet.

With that said, let me introduce Zach Johnson. He is a legend in the world of traffic. So, with that said, traffic and conversion, Zach, how’s it going .

Zach Johnson: It’s good, man. Thanks for having me on here. I appreciate it.

Charles: Sweet. So before we jump n this, tell me a little bit about your background. You know, how did you get to be the ninja that you are today?

Zach: Yeah. Thanks man. Well, I’ve been doing online marketing for the last six, seven years, and I got my start with this guy named Mike. He’s a trafiic guy. So, way back in the day. After that, I had a Facebook advertising company for a couple of years in San Diego. And last couple of years, I’ve actually been involved as the marketing guy involved with Entreport and Lead Pages. And just about a year ago this week, I started a management and optimization company called Game Changer Profits.

And we’ve worked on, I would say about 35 or so different falls, and hopefully on this call we can talk about just one of those-

Charles: Yeah.

Zach: -which we’ve had some pretty awesome success with. So, yeah.

Charles: Well first of all, Entreport rocks. Lead Pages rock. Tell me about this process. How do you- I’m excited. If you all could see me now you’d think, Charles, you’re shaking. You’re going into a coma. No. It’s really good. It’s really good because a.) this is the kind of stuff that makes a difference from – I’m successful, and I’m owing a small island somewhere in the Caribbean. And I’m aiming for the small island in the Caribbean. So, with that said, tell us about this funnel. I mean, I’m here. It’s just- hey, it’s just intimate – just me and you. Share everything.

Zach: Share everything. Yeah. Well, we’ve been working on this client that’s been in the- I’d say the spiritual health and wellness market. And we’ve been managing their funnels for about a year. And through this four-part, kind of funnel sacking formula I’m going to share with you guys in this call or this interview, it’s the same process that we’ve been able to generate $100 in revenue per email address from their funnel. And so, I know like when we talk a lot about traffic, everyone’s talking about how cheap of traffic can you get? How cheap of, you know, cost per email can you get?

And everyone’s really focused on, you know, traffic’s my problem, right? And we all say, you know, the ameteurs focus on traffic, and the pros focus on conversion. Well, in this- hopefully we can dive in a figure out- break this down and simplify it so that the strategy’s there. And everyone listening can go and implement this sae strategy so they can increase the amount of revenue that they’re making per email address, so that it doesn’t matter whether they’re paying $5 for an opt-in on Facebook, $3, or $8, or $10 – they’re still making a ROI.

Charles: Dude, I’m excited. I am truly excited because it’s seldom that I get to talk to a master. Everybody usually goes, where’s the newest, cheapest traffic? And I’m like, screw that. You’re going to be out of business the minute you can’t afford that traffic. So, keep going. And when you said $100 per lead, correct? Not per buyer, per-

Zach: Yeah. That’s per email address over the life time value. Mean they’re- you know the lifetime value of their customer is north of $600. So, we’re doing a great job of converting those leads into sales. But, you know, one thing that it’s not – I’ll tell you this right off the bat – is, it has nothing to do with any templatized or copy and paste type funnels. You know, like this client came to us with about two or three of those, sitting in their Infusionsoft. And they’re like, well, we’ve got so-and-so’s templatized, fancy name campaign.

And we’ve got this one. And what we really just need you to do is make it work for us. And we really just want you to put in the copy and what to say. And so, I’ll tell you right now. It’s none of those templatized, copy and paste campaigns. And traffic really, you know, was- they thought that was their problem going into it. And the real problem was that they didn’t you know, have a funnel in the first place that was- even like, 100 percent done. There’s all these people out there, including our clients when they come to us, they’ve got something that’s 80 percent of the way done. But, it’s something that’s not even- doesn’t even have the right strategy for their business.

So, the first thing we had to rally dive into- what was the right funnel strategy for their business. Meaning, how’s the business [getting – 05:08]? What assets do they have to work with? What does their existing traffic looking like? What was their current email list? And what was some of the low-hanging fruit in terms of marketing assets that we had to work with?

And they had, you know, they hada decent lookng sales page. They had worked with a guy on their overall webinar presentation and webinar formula who’s really good at like helping them- but they had like those pieces, but they didn’t have like the automation figured out. And they hadn’t had- figured out paid traffic.

And don’t even get me started in terms of you know, their funnel metrics. Like, they were just completely overwhelmed with the data that was- that they didn’t have and the data that we ultimately got clarity on. And how we took a totally, you know, data and metric-driven approach to optimizing their overall funnel. So, that being said, we nailed down their strategy in the first couple of weeks.

And, the- and once we had one funnel, I mean it literally just took about 30, 60 days just to get one funnel- like 100 percent done through strategy, to copy , to automation, to setting up their marketing and funnel dashboard with their metrics. And once they had that done, we knew that that particular funnel was generating about- it was about $24 and some change in revenue per email address. We’re like, this is awesome. Great.

Like, they made, within 90 days of running that webinar, they’d made about a quarter million dollars, and they’re like stoked. And we want to buy more traffic now, right? And so we’re like, it’s pretty sweet. You’re able to buy an email opt-in for $5 or $8, and they’re putting a dollar in and getting anywhere from, you know, $3 to $5 out. And so, that was kind of the first funnel. So when we talk about this funnel [sacking – 07:06] system, and we’re like, how do we grow revenue in this business that’s been stagnant at a couple million in revenue for several years?

Well, we thought, okay. Well, this funnel- we could do everything we came here to do some better split tests on some landing pages; to do some better split tests on some subject lines. But we’re like, you know what? That’s pretty good. I’m stoked- I’m happy with that number. Let’s get started on another funnel. And so, we built them out a whole trip wire and liquidation offer funnel on the back end where, if anybody didn’t buy on that $1000 price point of what they were selling on the webinar, we had a $100 product with a couple of different upsells on the backend.

And the reason- I’m not going to go into too much about what the pricing was, the conversion rate was on each in particular offer, because the point was is that we started with the second funnel. And then that was generated- that funnel was generating- actually, I think I can pull it up here. That funnel was generating close to about $10 in revenue per email opt-in. So, we’re like, sweet. Now we’re generating like, $30 in revenue per email opt-in that comes in.

And we basically, ove the last year, have kept on with that process We added on another free [book – 08:29] plus shipping offer. We added on another webinar funnel on top of it. This particular client- we’re like, 9 funnels deep on this bad boy. It’s like a gauntlet of a [unclear – 08:40] of a funnel, right? And it’s not like this giant funnel that we’ve overcomplicated. It’s just a bunch- it’s like, small, micro runs that we’ve been able to execute within a quick, 60- to 90-day time frame.

And when you add all these- the EPC’s over all these different funnels, and how much revenue we’re generating per email, I’ll send you over a screenshot. And you basically can see that we’re generating a little over $100- $100 and like 80 cents in revenue per email address. And it just makes it insanely easy to scale traffic a year into this particular client’s funnel because we’ve got like just amazing amounts of insight and data on how much revenue they’re making.

Charles: That’s huge. I mean, that is massive. I mean, that is- and you said something that I think most people won’t actually pick up on. It didn’t happen overnight. I mean, it literally took- let’s just say 60 days, per funnel. I think you mention about nine of them, at this point, you’ve stacked together. And honestly, at nine, I can’t see any reason to stop. I mean, and I’m sure they’re probably not. And it’s just really exciting because like you said, they already bought somebody’s pre-done magic unicorn funnels.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: And while those things, I think, have value to some extent for some people, the problem is every niche is different; every traffic source is different. There’s really not a one size that fits all to anything.

Zach: Totally.

Charles: And I think that when you try to apply a pre-done anything it usually- and honestly, like if you gave me all your funnels, I would probbly not be able to make them work, because everything is different. There’s not a cookie-cutter formula. That’s what people want, but there’s no such thing.

Zach: I do buy pre-baked cookies though. But I will not get a cookie-cutter funnel. That’s for sure.

Charles: Absolutely. Now something interesting – you made a comment about webinars. Are you all running- I mean, what’s your opinion- let’s say if somebody’s starting brand new today. They have, you know, they’ve got to figure everything out. And let’s just say that technology, as it is, they can put together Lead Pages, Click Funnel, really, Office Autopilot or Entreport – however you like to look at it – what would you suggest that people start with?

Zach: Man, I think, you know, we get this question all the time. I think [voice cuts out – 11:12] –the money these days is in the metrics. And whatever is going to get you clarity and control over your funnel metrics the fastest, is what you should be using. And sometimes that’s not easy to do if you’re using, I mean, Infusionsoft or Entreport. And a lot of these tools, they really only get you a partial view of your overall marketing funnel’s performance.

But there’s also something to be said for, just general speed of execution – getting out there and figure out your funnel metrics fast. I can’t tell you how many times when clients come to us. Not only do they have these cookie-cutter funnels, but they have something that they think is done but they don’t know if it’s good or not.

Like, and so, we’ve had people of like- wow! I have this totally complete funnel. We’re like, yeah man. That’s really only generating about $1 I revenue per email address, and you’re in the Internet marketing niche, or you’re in the financial niche. You’re going to have to do some work on your funnel. And you know, we’ll have to think through your pricing, and your offers, and everything. And so, that’s where really thinking through what we call an intelligent sales funnel strategy that’s specific to their overall business.

Charles: You’ll laugh at this, Zach. You’ll absolutely laugh. When you were telking me that I was about to wet my pants, laughing so hard. And I know this is not what people want to hear, but I’m going to be honest with you. I would, if you asked me to go into the Internet marketing niche, I would turn, rip off my shirt, and run the other way. I think of any niche, just froma pure, saturation standpoint, I think it’s just- I would not want to be in it; don’t want to be in it; do not want those leads.

Unfortunately, what we’ve found from the Internet- and I’m talking hardcore Internet marketers, not somebody using the Internet marketing, online marketing as a tool for their business, but people who only sell how to make money online – I think they’re really beginning to feel the crunch of, traffic sources are drying up for them.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: I think the cost per lead is- I know for a fact is going up. It’s getting harder to make any of that work. I truly- and I’m going to just tell you this. I don’t think that that user has the lifetime value, because they burn out so fast.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: And that’s just my take on it – just absolutely my take on it.

Zach: Yeah. Tell me how you really feel.

Charles: It’s going to be bad.

Zach: Well and the fact is that right now, if yo’re doing online marketing, you’re overwhelmed with just the amount of data, the tols, the technology, and you’re really underwhelmed with the amount of actionable insights, or metrics that you have available to you about on how your funnel is performing. Right? And so, when I started Game Changers, I didn’t want to be a funnel-building company.

There are so many Infusionsoft pewople out there, funnel experts that were like, building funnels, and they’d be like kay great. It’s done. And you know, now, go work with it. And I think that there’s so many A-player business owners that are out there doing $1M, $2M a year. They’re either stagnant, or they don’t have time to manage their funnel. And so they end up hiring someone that’s going to build it. And they turn it over to them. But then they have nobody to hand it over to once they’re done.

And so we have all these like, clients who we work with that have these templatized campaigns, but not a CEO that has time to make it all work. So, when we work with our clients, we’re managing it, kind of ongoing, month-to-month basis, optimizing it. And [unclear – 15:08] is working on a new funnel. And we’re implementing this funnel-stacking, methodology to conversions. And the effects that it’s having in terms of increasing the amount of revenue that’s being generated per email address on the funnel is amazing, and outperforming in, you know, any one maybe, in particular split test, might have been able to do.

Charles: Oh, I think you’ve hit it right on the money. Most people think a single split test on a single page is all they need. It’s kind of like you’ve just cut into- you took a chainsaw, cut out the middle of your bed, and you’re like, well, you know, I just wanted to do one thing. You know, that one thing isn’t enough to fix it. You really have to look from the entire funnel.

I mean- and I’m excited to hear that because so many people think all it takes is- and I’m not downing anybody’s product, by any stretch of the imagination. So, guys, save me the hate email. You can’t take a strategy that you’ve heard somebody else sell you and apply it. I mean, you made a comment about using a trip wire and then, you made a comment that you made $100- $100 product.

I don’t know if that trip wire is the $100 product, if it’s something else that leads to the $100 product. Don’t know. But I think the big issue is people often say, well, such and such has got a $29 product, and a $7 product. And then they copy it.

Zach: Oh yeah.

Charles: And the cost of traffic is different for everybody.

Zach: Yeah. I mean, I have funnels now that we’ve been building for 90 days. They’re generating great ROI. And they’re like, but Zach, I don’t have a low price point ticket offer. I don’t have my- a liquidation offer. I’m like, well, great. Like, maybe that might subsidize 20 percent of your trafic, or 50 percent of your traffic. But you’re already making like, putting a dollar in, you’re getting $5 out. I’m not dissing trip wires or liquidation offers by any means.

But I’m just sayng like, if it’s for a particular type of business, and I typically see if you’re spending north of you know, 20, 30 grand a month on Ad Spend, yeah. Like, you might as well invest in like, a little trip wire liquidation-type offer and save your- and subsidize 50 percent of your traffic costs. That’s going to be amazing in terms of your ROI.

But somebody who’s just getting into paid advertising, you know, it’s probably not the first thing that you need to do.

Charles: Can I get a double Amen on that? We need a double Amen. There’s so many people I see every day. Right now, somebody’s probably throwing the- I see the phone being thrown across the parking lot with your name, and my name, and a few adjectives that we can’t repeat. But I see so many people who, basically get the concept- I’ve got a free DVD, and an upsell. And it’s not working on Facebook, or Adwords, or MSN. And like the end of like, day two, they’re not breaking even – nowhere remotely close to being breaking even, and it’s al just- and you just said it.

You can do that, but, you know, let’s face it. I can’t make a $7 product break even under any stretch of the imagination. I can’t. I can’t. At one time I could. I could do it. One time it was like- you could also put up Google ads and everything worked. But, I think with the cst of traffic today, I think- and it’s not that- actually, you can still get in with a little bit of money. And if you’re a small player, if you can test and just keep refining it until it works.

It may take you a long time, but you can do that. But I think that we’re at a point where, to be able to throw something against the wall to see what works, it doesn’t work anymore. I simply don’t think-

Zach: And most people- most business owners- they don’t know what they don’t know. They don’t know what works, right? And wat they- the bottom line is they need a professional approach to building, managing, and optimizing their funnel, and more importantly, their funnel metrics. And the idea of you know, having a weekly or biweekly marketing call with your team or, whoever’s kind of managing your funnel where, it’s like, this is how much revenue you’re generating per click; or how much revenue you’re generating per email opt-in.

Here’s what your average order value is Here’s what your lead to sell conversion rate is. And here are the tactics and the funels that we need to be building to double those or triple those to accelarate your revenue growth rate. And if people would kind of switch their focus from maybe the tactics, right, that are all involved in building a funnel, but they would take more of a data driven approach. And who knows? Whether you’re just using like, doing it the old school way or whatever, it’s just having a spreadsheet in your marketing process that you’re looking at this marketing spreadsheet dashboard on a weekly basis.

And making smart, intelligent funnel decisions off of that. Or, you have, you know, a marketing funnel, dashboard-type solution that we provde to our clients that’s telling you all these metrics on a daily and weekly basis, so that it’s not really guess work as to what levers you need to be pulling to have clarity and control over that profit and revenue-generating process in your business.

Charles: And I think that’s brilliant. Because I’m going to just tell you with a spreadsheet, it’s manual It literally is- you’re the one plugging in the number and all it does is- and I’ve done this before. One time I like, plugged in the number wrong. And I was like- I was so excited. I’m like, my gosh! I should be able to buy like ten times as much trafiic. This is great. But in real life, it didn’t work that way. What’s wrong? But you know, all it takes is one number off anywhere, or a formula, or a cell being off – and you know, you’re literally just spending an entire day sitting down, calculating everything out. And it’s just-

Zach: It’s awful

Charles: – and it’s just, you know, unless you just love looking at Excel formulas, it’s not the way to go. It’s simply, you know, unless you love pivot tables and can do that kind of stuff, it’s not the way to go. Now, with that said, just looking at this, you know, creating a funnel, a.) we’ve just made- right now, a lot of people are upset, because the $7 funnel doesn’t work. We’ve all said it. You’ve all known it. You’re just finally admitting it. you know, there’s a place for that funnel.

That funnel is, basically, for us, it’s with email. We have tried to use the free DVD funnel up front. It’s not worth it. For us, we seem to do better bringing people into a webinar, just so we can get higher conversion rates. I won’t even say higher conversion rates. The conversion rates are lower than a $7 sale. But our earnings are enough that we can actually start taking a [unclear – 22:23] and say, okay. I didn’t break even. But at least I am, you know, I’m moving up the mountain.

Zach: So, what you’re saying there Charles, just so I can clarify what- for everybody, is that conversion rates are not always the most imortant thing. Revenue is the- and revenue groth is the golden metric for the health and success of your business. And I’ll take lower conversion rates, but more revenue, all- not all day long, but for most businesses, I would do that. Right?

Charles: Yes.

Zach: In some cases, you might have a strategic strategy where a customer acquisition is part of the strategic direction and you do need to do that. But, I typically always optimizing for revenue, not necessarily higher conversions. And sometimes, higher conversion rates are a path to higher revenues, don’t get me wrong. But there are multiple ways to the same result.

Charles: Oh absolutely. And I think one of the big things that people often don’t look at because they’re looking at just a small micro-segment of the funnels-

Zach: Sure

Charles: -if you’re stacking- let’s just say you’ve got four funnels. So, let’s just- to make it simple, each funnel lasts a week. First funnel – okay, maybe you’re 25, 30 percent there, breaking even. Maybe on week two, and maybe you’re getting to 40, maybe 50. Week three, maybe you’re at 60, 70. Week four, maybe you’re 80, 90, 100, or whatever the case may be.

You know, your conversion rates are [irrelevant – 23:59]. At the end of week four, you could’ve had like a 20 percent conversion on a $7 product all the way through, every week. You know, if the $7 product was the Holy Grail of business, that’s the only thing people would have. Truth of the matter is, it’s not. I mean, quite often, for us, when we pull out a $7 product, it’s only to show the market that we have relevance to them.

Zach: Yeah. And the reality is today, the money today is in the metrics, right? The money, you know, used to be in the follow up right, when you were like, cold calling people and just like dialing for dollars, right? Then the money was in the list when you could just hammer down a dozen different affiliate offers to the same list.

Charles: Yep.

Zach: But now, if you go and you copy and paste someone elses’ funnel, you don’t know the metrics behind that funnel. And even though, if it was generating you x-amount of dollars in revenus per email address, and you copied it from any, you know, funnel guru, you wouldn’t necessarily know what your traffic costs could be, and you wouldn’t necesarily know what to do with it.

And so, the fact that you have to have a passion for your business numbers and your funnel metrics. And if you know all those metris, you can invest in traffic more confidently and more consistently. And so, one thing that I get a lot when I share this story of how we’re doing this for a client is people just flat-out don’t believe us, you know? Like, you’re lying I don’t believe it.

And one thing that I want to do is, you know, we have this new webinar presentation workshop that we’re coming out with in the month of October. And we’re actually just- we’ve got a sign off from the client, where we just open up the kimono, and walk through, and share screen shots on every part of this campaign.

And we’re going to start doing this in the month of October, where you can, and register for our weekly, live webinar, where we walk you through the funnel stacking formula, and how we are generating 100-plus dollars in revenue per email address. And how, people can implement that same process and strategy in their own business.

And then, you know, see the screen shots, see the proof. And just dive into it for an hour, so you can learn it. I mean that’s- if somebody told me, you know, two years ago, how to generate $100 in revenue per email, I would’ve been like, well one, what is revenue per email and why is that important? And then, you know, how do I know that’s even good?

And now, I would’ve jumped all over that, had somebody kind of show me the path. So, I encourage everybody to check that out. And that’s- that’ll be Russ [unclear – 27:05]. He’s our marketing chief funnel architect who does that overall presentation and training. I think, it’s really for someody who’s already approaching seven-figures, and really has no idea what their, you know, marketing [funnel – 27:20] metrics are.

Charles: Most people, honestly, don’t. And I know that’s not what people want to hear, but most people are just like, I made profit. I didn’t. I mean, and the concept of- and I’ll tell you, as we’re maturing online, the smarter businesses that are healthier, that have more cash flow are able to go negative, longer. And if you look at that and you try to copy that model-

Another example, when you mentioned about getting these pre-done funnels, I think one of the biggest issues that people don’t look at- super guru xy, he comes out, and he does a product. And there’s a celebrity status around that person. So, he’s going to be able to sellit. If he had skull and crossbones on the paper- people would buy it.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Right. You know, Bob needs some money. Quick, Janet. Get the PayPal account. Let’s send a donation. That’s the kind- but when you try it, and you’re not like the well-known super, you know, mega guru expert, your numbers are completely different.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: You know, and then, like you said, every traffic source is differerent; every niche, every key words, it- just because somebody makes $13 per lead doesn’t mean you can’t. And I think that’s where so many people- it’s just- it’s not a copy and paste scenario. Literally, in my mind, a funnel has to be built for the person, for their strength, you know, for their image – everything about them, it has to be focused on that.

Zach: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, that’s exactly, you know, that’s exactly what Game Changers does. That’s exactly what we do when we take on a cliet is, you know, map it all out so that it’s intelligent for their business, right?

Charles: Absolutely.

Zach: And so yeah. I encourage everybody to just go to Game Changer Profits and check out the webinar just so you can check out some screen shots and the overall case study. It’s, by far, one of the most- the proudest, or the best funnel- or, the best funnel I’m most proud of, that we’ve worked on this year. So-

Charles: And with that, make sure you do the Tweet to get the- they’ve got a seven-figure funnel map. Make sure you do a Tweet just to get that. I’m going to tell you guys. I’m over at the site now. It looks good. It looks clean. I’ve signed up for the webinar. I wish it was like an auto-webinar that would play like, right now.

Zach: I bet you do.

Charles: But, with that said, guys head over to- just go to Game Changers. It’s the easiest way for me to put it, is to head over to It’ll be in the show notes, so you know, just swipe the image of the Media Buyer logo, and we’ll head over there together. Make sure you opt-in guys. I’m just going to tell you this.

Getting- if I had to say anything in business, which- and I will truly say this is far more important than traffic, at the end of the day, you can buy all the trafiic you want, and have all the credit card bills you want, but if you don’t have an intelligent funnel to handle it, to manage it, and the metrics to be able to look at it and say, did it work? Did it not work? It’s all just kind of a pie-in-the-sky dream.

Zach: Yep.

Charles: you know, and I’ll tell you this. Four, five years ago, it was like, so easy to make money. I mean, it’s literally it’s like- yeah, fell off the- you know, ten years ago, it was super easy to make money.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Sixteen years ago, it was like, I can’t believe people are giving me money for this. It’s really gotten a lot tougher. I mean, I will tell you hands down, and I’ve had some utterly major failures. A few things have worked successfully. And a few things have blown up- not worked. But the things that have worked, really came down to having a funnel, and literally just putting funnel after funnel after funnel after funnel and making it automated.

Because- and Zach, what do you feel about this? If somebody has no funnel. Somebody comes into the- they get an opt-in, then they’re mailing- every day they’re mailing something different for the next 60, 90 days. I mean, I think that says it all. You know, there was a time, it was really a big thing, where people were l like, oh, you don’t need auto-responders. All you need to do is send daily broadcasts of whatever is happening in your life.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Well, I think that’s really cool, and it’s nice, and maybe after they get through your sequence, you can’t split test it. Every day that went by was a day that you can’t measure, monitor, or split test. It’s like every day- and it works if you’re in some place where traffic is cheap, plentiful, and there’s no competition.

But, in today’s marketplace, I mean, I truly believe if you don’t have funnels, with an “s”, in place, you’re really just- you’re going off the deep end. And you just don’t know it yet. You’re literally driving- it’s like driving on an icy road at night, blindfolded. It may look great in Fifty Shades of Grey, but it doesn’t work on your wallet. You know? It’s going to be a disaster.

Zach: Well, Charles, man, I really appreciate you having me on. This has been a lot of fun. You’re analogies are- you’re clearly a talented marketer because any talented marketer tells great stories and has great analogies. So, thanks for, you know, blocking off [unclear – 32:31] like, 30 minutes just to share this case study with your audience and just to, you know, be asking some nice, intelligent questions. Like, I love conversations like this. So, thank you.

Charles: I appreciate it. Guys, I’m going to go ahead and get this in the show notes. And Zach, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and let’s get together again.

To learn more about Zach Johnson visit http://www.gamechangerprofits.com