Category Archives for "PPC Pay Per Click"

Apr 11

Brad Geddes and Charles Kirkland Talk About 3 Ways to Test Pay Per Click Ads

By charles kirkland | Adwords , blog , Podcast , PPC Pay Per Click , Uncategorized

Test Your Pay Per Click Ads

Charles Kirkland: This is Charles, founder of the Media Buyer Association. I’d like to welcome you to the podcast, whether you’re listening to it day, evening, or somewhere in between, you’re going to learn a lot about the world of paid traffic.

Now, today I‘ve got the man that really needs no introduction. If you’ve been into paid traffic, you will know who Brad is. So, Brad Geddes is the godfather of traffic.

So, Brad, how are you doing?

Brad Geddes: Good.  Thanks for having me.

Charles: Dude, I am excited. I am super excited today. Now, this is what happened. Brad’s got a software, and I’m going to screw the name up, because I’m very good at doing that. And we’ll just blame it on the southern accent here. He’s got a software called AdAlysis. I screwed it up probably. Who knows?

But first of all, it’s probably one of the most important pieces of software I think I’ve ever gotten an opportunity to even look at. We’re just getting started with it. But, when I initially saw it, I was thinking, crap this thing is going to be $1,000 a month. I know it’s going to be super expensive. And it wasn’t.

But we’re going to get to that. So, first of all, Brad. Why did you create the software? Tell us about what it does.

Brad Geddes: Sure. So, the software, primarily, is all about ad testing. And we essentially have sort of three ways we test ads. We look at best ads within an ad group, which is single ad group testing. We’ll do pattern matches across ad groups, so you can get insights. That’s all about ad testing too.

Ads are the only part of the account users see. Right? Users don’t care about your targeting message. That’s for you. Users think about your ads. And so, everyone in the industry says, oh ad testing’s important. Ad testing’s important.

And when we looked in reality, how people test ads, it goes like this. They set up, you know, maybe 100 ad groups. It could be 10,000 – number’s irrelevant here. It’s all about scale. And then they make two ads per ad group. And then month one, they go in and they’re like, all right, I’m going to make sure I have statistical significance and look at confidence factors.

And the reality is you maybe have three winners. And you’re a little deflated that you have 100 ad tests and three things to do. And so the next month, you do that again. You have five winners. Great. And so we have two months of data.

And the third month you start eyeballing it and saying well, that looks better than that one. I don’t really need to run test results for this. Let’s just pause this loser. And humans are terrible at figuring out patterns. We love to make patterns. So, we thought, you know what? Computers can do this. Right?

Our mantra is, if a computer can do it as well as a person, a person shouldn’t waste their time. People should be given actual data. So, essentually we did it so people could make real results with their ad tests, but then only give people actions when there’s actually something to do, and not waste our time with meaningless math.

Charles: I’ll tell you that’s exciting, because as you’re describing this, I’m thinking, hey! That’s me. Oh, that is me. Oh, third month, that is definitely me. And it’s across platforms, whether it’s Facebook, whether it’s Adwords, whether it’s Twitter. It’s like, you get to a point where it’s like, ugh! Well, yeah. I’ll take an educated guess. I usually probably turn off my most profitable ad campaigns. But you know, we live and we learn.

So really, at the core of what we’re talking about is users could care less about targeting. Only thing they see is the ad – how your ad compares to somebody else’s ad in the world of Google, you know, really you’re fighting your neighbor. Whoever your neighbor is, whoever one, two and three is – that’s who you’re fighting with.

So, what you’re really saying is, basically the thing that matters the most, you get the biggest lift, because you’re not going to get a massive lift from bidding, from adjusting bids, all that plays into a part. But your biggest gains really come from your ads – your ad copy.

Brad Geddes: Exactly. Right? Some part users see. And I also- so bidding’s important, right? It’s controlling the money. But bidding is a transient gain.

So, when you spend time setting a new bid you’re actions are relevant only until you set a new bid. And that’s where testing ads, testing landing pages, adding new keywords, adding negatives, have long-term impacts, which is why from a high theoretical level I’m a fan of automating bidding even if it’s not perfect in margins because the time you save can be so much better used in making permanent gains of adding new negative keywords, or creating, you know, a new landing page test.

Charles: Yes. Where the real gain comes, I mean, at the end of the day, if you’re doing the exact same thing as your competitors, which is basically drowning and trying to you know, come up with something better period, you really don’t come up with anything better than your competitors. You have to think differently. You have to automate differently. And you have to just plain be a lot smarter.

Now when I came across this, I was quite excited. I was super-excited. And I looked at it and I almost didn’t want to click on the pricing because I mean Brad, it’s like, you look at this, and like man, this thing’s going to be $1,000 a month, or at least $247, or $497. And I was pleasantly surprised.

I was actually somewhat in shock. I had to kind of look like, whoa! Well maybe that’s per day. I was like, surprised. I mean, completely and utterly shocked – in a good way!

Brad Geddes:  So, I mean I’ve been in this industry a long time, and when you start paying eight people a percentage of spend, you suddenly have nothing left. Right? And also, everyone wnts a little piece here. So, we actually really, really thought our pricing was okay. We’ve got API costs. We have database storage costs. We have processing costs. But our heart- our costs are only related to how many ads you have in our system.

So, we said, you know what? If you’ve got 10 million ads, that is a different price than 20 ads. Right? And so we essentially took a different view of that. So, if you’ve got them, we have people paying us quite a bit of money a month because they’ve got 20 million, 30 million ads in our accounts. If you’ve got 100 ads, it’s a really low price point. I want to make it accessible to everyone, not price out people.

Charles: Oh absolutely! And I was shocked when I saw this because every other platform I think I’ve ever looked at was like, we want a base and we want a percentage of your spend. And you start looking at it like, well, we’re using something here to manage ads across platform. We’re using something here to do relevant testing or bidding.

And next thing you know, all of a sudden you end up with basically, a boat-load of people, like you said, and this is, I think, a scary example, but it’s relatively true. We make a boat-load of money usually on a handful of ads. We do. The ROI’s just insane. But as we begin to scale these things up, literally our profit margin starts drying up, drying up and then sometimes we’re literally, quite often we’re going negative just for customer acquisition.

And it’s one thing to go negative for customer acquisition. It’s another thing to tack another seven, or eight, or even five percent onto that. I mean, that really makes it where I’m working to pay somebody else at that point.

Brad Geddes: And a lot of our customers are already using Marin or Kenshoo, or DoubleClick, you know, name whoever your bid system is, alright? So they can’t absorb that price very well, or if they’re an agency, they can’t sell that at some price point.

So, it’s- I think we’re going to see the rise, and you probably see this a lot. We’re going to see the rise in, I think, the next two to three years of complimentary just get stuff done platform systems where you know, it’s- Marin or Kenshoo, I mean, they’re good systems. They don’t automate ad testing.

And if you’re using Google CPA Bid System where you run the rules, you don’t need a third party platform outside of maybe a client reporting or something, or you don’t need them for bidding. So, I think you’re going to see some software rise up that are handling everything but the bidding aspects.

Charles: Oh, I totally agree with you and I really think CPA period has changed the game. When you look at it from the standpoint of okay, do I want to sit here and try to figure this out and micromanage it, or do I just want to say get me users at an acquired user base of x, y, or z? I think that really is a huge game-changer.

Brad Geddes: Yeah. I agree. For lead-gen, that’s great. Or even Google’s rudimentary bid rules for eCommerce – they’re not perfect. Right? But you’ve got to ask yourself. Okay. What’s better – me to hand five percent of spend to a third party, or me to use these really basic tools that are three percent off my margins, or are ether six percent off? Right? And that kind of tells you which one you probably want to use. But they’re good enough for, not everybody, but for most people.

Charles: Oh and I think you just hit on a good point.I mean, and I’m even going to say maybe 95 percent of the people will be fine using those. I think then, you know, you do have that small percentage of people that need everything. And if they could double whatever they have, they would. But that percentage is, I think, so relatively small compared to the overall universe of users. And I think that’s huge.

Just looking at your software, we came into it, we were pretty much using Google ads. We’d unfortunately had some Google problems. Finally, it took a while to get the account cleaned back up and fixed. But once we got it back up and running, I’m a happy, happy camper looking at some tools like this, because I feel like this is something that I need that is probably the best investment I can make when it comes to Google pay per click, hands down. I can’t think of another platform that would give me the bang for the buck that we’ve got here.

Brad Geddes: I’m glad to hear that. That’s the goal, right? So, our goal is always focus users on actions or make bulk actions simple. And so, we’ll roll in more and more features over the next coming years on that. I mean, we just rolled out the quality score tool, which now that you’ve got- because quality score’s all about either fixing your landing page, or organization, or testing ads.

I mean that’s all quality score comes down to is those three things. So we can do things like take a look at what’s your weighted quality score? Is your problem landing lages or ad related? And run it through an algorithm and say here’s the ad group that you need to fix the absolute most. Here’s the second most. And that’s again, let a machine do the math and let the user focus in.

Here’s my top quality score gainer. Here’s my top gain over here – whatever it happens to be. And I think that’s important because there’s too many things to do where you kind of look at your data all day long and are like, well, that was interesting. And if you every say that, you probably just wasted an hour of your life you’ll never get back. Right?.

Charles: I’ve looked at data before and it’s like- I’m embarrassed to even say this. My wife is an accountant. So, literally, I have my wife crunching out these massive spreadsheets. And she’s like, okay. Here’s your problems. And some days I look at them like, I know the problem, but I don’t know how to fix it. I’ve got 10 problems. Which one is giving me the biggest bang for my buck?

And often we look at it. I think most people spend their time tinkering on the macro- even the micro things, things that really almost make very little difference overall when the big problem, like you said, may be quality score. Maybe their landing page completely, utterly sucks. And I think that is a huge problem. What do you think is the biggest problem the average user has when it comes to just using Google in general?

Brad Geddes: So, I mean this is why people like you exist. The biggest problem is not understanding the basics of organization, keyword match types, and ads. I mean in reality, the amount of accounts we still see that are one ad group and 2,000 keywords, and all broad-matched words, and they’re terrible, right? Some people get better. Organization’s the first thing they get a handle on – how to actually do organization decently.

And next, it’s about learning about match types and actually, you’re managing search queries not keywords. Right? They’re just a proxy for search queries. And then you learn about the ads, and next it’s the ad extensions which, with the new desktop layout, are super, super important. And again, most accounts don’t have structure snippits let alone some of the other lesser known extentions.

I think it’s the basics are still the problem of most accounts. I mean again, that’s why you’ve got- you know Google’s got three million advertisers or something. And you know, there’s probably 100,000 good ones. And there’s probably a million being managed by resellers and the other 1.5 million or so, in that middle range, are really where the basics will give them a huge, huge lift. But it requires you know, four to six hours of time to learn the basics well, not the advanced stuff.

Charles: Oh, I think you hit it on the head. I see so many people. They have this concept of, I read a sales letter somewhere and I should immediately be able to put money into Google and it needs to spit my money out immediately in small, unmarked bills. And you realize that so many small businesses, first thing they do is they just open an account, give it a try, and wonder why it doesn’t work.

I’ve got a friend of mine who has a local business. And he goes, could you look at this? And I’m asking him what’s he doing? And he’s like man, we’re just spending a boat-load of money and I don’t know where it’s going. And as I looked at the account – it’s a company that has an extruder that makes screws.

So, just imagine him putting all the keywords that he thought were relevant to his business. Needless to say, I mean they were literally burning money for days. He goes, I don’t know what’s happening. It’s like well, you’ve kind of got this big, giant, broad match for screw extruder that just may not be the right target. I think the reality of it is so many people just jump in and they think it’s going to be easy to make money, which is wrong. At least I think it is.

Brad Geddes: Oh, it is. It’s terribly wrong. All right? I mean, in reality, to get a basic understanding of AdWords, you can do it in four to six hours. To get a great understanding could take months of time and actually just doing the work. But, it takes five minutes to open an account. It takes three hours to build a decent looking account for maybe 1,000 ad groups.

If you’re building an account with thousands of ad groups, we’ve had accounts that have taken us a month just to build. But that’s that layout. It’s just like building a house. Right? Like, what’s the end thing look like? What do we need to start with? When does this kind of wire need to be laid versus the flooring laid versus- you know, you don’t sheetrock something before you have wires in place.

And it’s that same kind of thing. And people just sort of jump to what they see as opposed to having a structure to create a proper account. Because it takes time and effort. It’s not just handed to you.

Charles: Oh my gosh! I think so many people look at like- they expected there would be a software to do it for them. It’s like- I don’t know if you’re familiar with something called Speed PPC, but back in the day, it did a lot of stuff. It’s still a pretty neat little software but at the end of the day, the software can only assist you.

If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re still going to put 2,000 keywords in a group and just go well, you know, it should work. I’ve got one landing page. All these things are like kind of, sort of, remotely related to my site, and I’ve got the same bid for everything. Google should fix it for me.

And I think that’s the reality is the average user’s coming in just completely blind. They’ve read some B.S. sales letter on, whatever and it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t even remotely work that way. And with the changes in Google- I absolutely love Google. And it’s hard to think that now we’ve got Google. We’ve got Display. We’ve got YouTube. We’ve got Gmail. We’ve got- I mean, literally, there’s no shortages of opportunities to use Google.

Brad Geddes: So, I think of AdWords as an aggregation of channels because you’ve got remarketing, shopping, search, remarketing for search, display buys, YouTube – and then you cross that with devices and suddenly- and Gmail, I mean you could just keep going there’s so many different ways.

So, I no longer think of AdWords as AdWords. I think it’s an interface to manage multiple channels in one place.

Charles: Yes! Absolutely. And I think it’s really interesting. I know this is slightly off-subject but I love talking to people when we get into attribution, and lift, and we’re doing multi-channel. I think the average consumer cannot really even envision that opportunity that’s even out there. They’re thinking, I did a search on Google. That’s where my ad should be. I think they’ve completely missed the boat. And I think most marketers have, too.

Brad Geddes: Oh, I totally agree. Totally agree. Right? And the problem with attribution is you deal with end data very quickly. So, in some cases, this is where marketing managers and that thought process is so important of, let’s at least design a few different customer journeys, market to the customer journey and see if we can change things.

If we don’t have the data to prove it, let’s at least- I mean, they’re called best practices for a reason. They’re best for most people, not necessarily for everybody but let’s at least start with a best practice, multi-channel type of system and at least lay out our ideal customer journeys – start somewhere. It may be wrong, but at least it’s a starting place.

Charles: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I don’t want to keep you online. I asked for 30 minutes. I just want to say thank you for your 30 minutes. Where can we find out more about you and more about your software?

Brad Geddes: Sure. So, you can find And you can contact me there. Or I do hang out at Twitter at BGTheory. And if I’m social, it’s likely to be Twitter over anywhere else. Those are the two best places to usually find me, or any SMX conference pretty much in the world – you can find me at one of the SMX’s as well.

Click here to check out adAlysis and see what it can do for your Adwords and Bing accounts


Feb 19

The Low-Cost Guide to Getting Started in PPC Marketing

By charles kirkland | blog , Marketing , PPC Pay Per Click

With numerous opportunities to make money online available worldwide, one of the most popular methods these days is affiliate marketing. There are several different approaches that can be taken to do affiliate marketing, but most marketers agree that the fastest way to start making money right now with it is through Pay Per Click (PPC) marketing. Unfortunately, this also happens to be one of the fastest ways to lose a lot of money at the same time if you do not plan properly.

In this guide, we will take a look at three critical factors that every affiliate marketer must be aware of so that they can successfully turn a profit using PPC marketing without risking the loss of a large amount of money.


Generating an exceptional profit using ClickBank is still highly possible at the moment. Having said that, there is such a large variety of different niche and products, that it might be tough to choose the most effective income generating products on ClickBank to advertise. So what’s the easiest way to determine which products are ideal to promote so that you can make the most money without having to waste your time?

Let’s take a look at a handful of tips that should be followed which will put you on the right track of uncovering some of the most successful ClickBank products.

1. Pay attention to exactly how well other affiliate marketers are doing in promoting the product.

It’s possible reveal a great deal about whether or not a product is profitable by looking at the sales statistics of others. Without doubt a product is selling very well if there is a high number of affiliates who are advertising it. ClickBank has a feature known as gravity, and this is a number that basically represents the percentage of online marketers successfully promoting that specific product.

As you shouldn’t make a judgement upon gravity on its own, it is basic data that ClickBank gives you and it really is an excellent tool in selecting a income generating product to advertise. Choosing virtually any product with a gravity above 10 and lower than 100 is usually a great start, if it is under 10 then odds are it isn’t selling very well. Likewise, higher than 100 often indicates that the marketplace is possibly saturated, but not necessarily.

2.  Monitor products that are rising in popularity.

To discover successful products, it is recommended to pick one whose statistics are climbing. Restrict your choice of products to roughly 10 and track them for at least a week or two. Should you note that other affiliates are choosing one product a lot quicker than the others, then that could be a successful affiliate product.

3. Determine the return percentage.

One crucial factor you should consider when choosing the top ClickBank products is the return percentage rate. When the return rates are high, then precisely how good a product sells indicates absolutely nothing since you will end up returning your earnings to ClickBank in the future. Virtually any product with return rates higher than 15% probably should not even be considered irrespective of the sales rates.

4. Examine the size of the market.

After you have narrowed down the products a bit more by crossing out products with high return rates, you should then check out the market size. For example, suppose you have found four different niches. Use the Google keyword tool and research the variety of keywords for each niche and figure out the search volume. Google Trends is also a useful tool for analyzing the developments of a niche right now and in recent times. The best scenario is to find a product with few competitors and high demand from customers.


Once you find a profitable offer from the ClickBank Marketplace, you will then need to prepare a quality landing page. In terms of selling products through PPC, landing pages are among the most vital means and many methods are used to properly optimize the pages. Among the most successful approaches to making large profits online is through presenting a strong review page along with quality content. Here are some essential points to be mindful of when building your landing pages.

1. Emphasize the benefits of the product for your visitors.

Industry studies have often shown that a properly sorted list of advantages that a product provides can be rather influential to visitors. When clear benefits are listed, readers feel more encouraged to purchase the product.

2. Use convincing reviews and recommendation on your landing page.

Unbiased product evaluations and testimonials provide fantastic possibilities for transforming your visitors into customers. Most people seek out immediate and quick remedies for their problems. Furthermore, they readily trust personal recommendations that don’t seem biased. Therefore, make sure to provide positive reviews regardless of how hefty it is on your expense plan. In the event that you are low on money, simply explore the product in detail and compose a balanced review for your landing page.

3. Compare the product with other similar affiliate products.

Presenting a comparison between a large number of affiliate products is a really wise way to develop an outstanding review landing page. Comparisons easily grab the attention of a visitor and they establish confidence with them. Make sure that you compare between 5 to 10 different affiliate products at the same time on the review landing page to avoid any potential confusion or misunderstanding.

4. Focus on your keywords in the landing page.

When making your landing page, highlight your top keywords and try to use them in the page title, header and throughout the content.

5. Make it easy to reach the merchant’s website.

Since the landing page you are building is aimed at directing visitors to the merchant’s main site, you must guarantee that they are transferred to their site without any problems. An easy transition to the main sales page will increase the percentage of conversions.


When using PPC marketing, there are several factors to take into account to guarantee that your ads are displayed properly so that your money is spent on the clicks that have potential for converting into affiliate sales. These are some tips will help you get started with PPC marketing for your affiliate products the smart way.

1. Properly group your keywords.

Creating groups of keywords based on their theme will assist in having the search engine display the ads that are relevant to those particular keywords. Since you are not placing all of your keywords in one large group, this also makes it easier for you to test the strength of your different campaign ads.

2. Link to a specific web page on your site.

Every click counts, and so if you are displaying a specific ad for a particular keyword then you want to ensure that the ad directs the visitor to the appropriate page. In general, this would mean a specific landing page and not the homepage of your website.

3. Focus on a keyword’s overall conversion rate.

It is common for marketers to confuse between a keyword’s high click through rate (CTR) and its actual overall ability to convert. The CTR is only referring to those who clicked on the ad and reached your page. It does not count the amount of people who then went to the merchant’s sales page and actually purchased the product.

4. Split up campaigns based on region.

It is ideal to display your ads based on the geographic region of the visitor. If you organize your keyword ad groups properly, you can customize your ads to attract more people. This is a key method to personalize your ads, as you can write them in a language native or familiar to people.


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Oct 26

How Zach Johnson Funnel Stacks For A Higher LTV

By charles kirkland | Adwords , Agency , blog , FaceBook , PPC Pay Per Click

I was able to get Zach Johnson to explain how he is able to generate $100 in revenue per email address from his funnel with the Funnel Stacking Method.  This podcast is packed with advanced and high level strategies that can level the playing field if you apply them.


Total Time [32:51] Charles Kirkland: Hey. This is Charles. I hope everybody’s having a great day or even depending on where you’re at. And if you’re not, after this interview, if you’re blood’s not flowing; if you don’t have a million ideas going on, get your pulse checked. Most likely, you’ve turned into a zombie and you’re not aware of it yet.

With that said, let me introduce Zach Johnson. He is a legend in the world of traffic. So, with that said, traffic and conversion, Zach, how’s it going .

Zach Johnson: It’s good, man. Thanks for having me on here. I appreciate it.

Charles: Sweet. So before we jump n this, tell me a little bit about your background. You know, how did you get to be the ninja that you are today?

Zach: Yeah. Thanks man. Well, I’ve been doing online marketing for the last six, seven years, and I got my start with this guy named Mike. He’s a trafiic guy. So, way back in the day. After that, I had a Facebook advertising company for a couple of years in San Diego. And last couple of years, I’ve actually been involved as the marketing guy involved with Entreport and Lead Pages. And just about a year ago this week, I started a management and optimization company called Game Changer Profits.

And we’ve worked on, I would say about 35 or so different falls, and hopefully on this call we can talk about just one of those-

Charles: Yeah.

Zach: -which we’ve had some pretty awesome success with. So, yeah.

Charles: Well first of all, Entreport rocks. Lead Pages rock. Tell me about this process. How do you- I’m excited. If you all could see me now you’d think, Charles, you’re shaking. You’re going into a coma. No. It’s really good. It’s really good because a.) this is the kind of stuff that makes a difference from – I’m successful, and I’m owing a small island somewhere in the Caribbean. And I’m aiming for the small island in the Caribbean. So, with that said, tell us about this funnel. I mean, I’m here. It’s just- hey, it’s just intimate – just me and you. Share everything.

Zach: Share everything. Yeah. Well, we’ve been working on this client that’s been in the- I’d say the spiritual health and wellness market. And we’ve been managing their funnels for about a year. And through this four-part, kind of funnel sacking formula I’m going to share with you guys in this call or this interview, it’s the same process that we’ve been able to generate $100 in revenue per email address from their funnel. And so, I know like when we talk a lot about traffic, everyone’s talking about how cheap of traffic can you get? How cheap of, you know, cost per email can you get?

And everyone’s really focused on, you know, traffic’s my problem, right? And we all say, you know, the ameteurs focus on traffic, and the pros focus on conversion. Well, in this- hopefully we can dive in a figure out- break this down and simplify it so that the strategy’s there. And everyone listening can go and implement this sae strategy so they can increase the amount of revenue that they’re making per email address, so that it doesn’t matter whether they’re paying $5 for an opt-in on Facebook, $3, or $8, or $10 – they’re still making a ROI.

Charles: Dude, I’m excited. I am truly excited because it’s seldom that I get to talk to a master. Everybody usually goes, where’s the newest, cheapest traffic? And I’m like, screw that. You’re going to be out of business the minute you can’t afford that traffic. So, keep going. And when you said $100 per lead, correct? Not per buyer, per-

Zach: Yeah. That’s per email address over the life time value. Mean they’re- you know the lifetime value of their customer is north of $600. So, we’re doing a great job of converting those leads into sales. But, you know, one thing that it’s not – I’ll tell you this right off the bat – is, it has nothing to do with any templatized or copy and paste type funnels. You know, like this client came to us with about two or three of those, sitting in their Infusionsoft. And they’re like, well, we’ve got so-and-so’s templatized, fancy name campaign.

And we’ve got this one. And what we really just need you to do is make it work for us. And we really just want you to put in the copy and what to say. And so, I’ll tell you right now. It’s none of those templatized, copy and paste campaigns. And traffic really, you know, was- they thought that was their problem going into it. And the real problem was that they didn’t you know, have a funnel in the first place that was- even like, 100 percent done. There’s all these people out there, including our clients when they come to us, they’ve got something that’s 80 percent of the way done. But, it’s something that’s not even- doesn’t even have the right strategy for their business.

So, the first thing we had to rally dive into- what was the right funnel strategy for their business. Meaning, how’s the business [getting – 05:08]? What assets do they have to work with? What does their existing traffic looking like? What was their current email list? And what was some of the low-hanging fruit in terms of marketing assets that we had to work with?

And they had, you know, they hada decent lookng sales page. They had worked with a guy on their overall webinar presentation and webinar formula who’s really good at like helping them- but they had like those pieces, but they didn’t have like the automation figured out. And they hadn’t had- figured out paid traffic.

And don’t even get me started in terms of you know, their funnel metrics. Like, they were just completely overwhelmed with the data that was- that they didn’t have and the data that we ultimately got clarity on. And how we took a totally, you know, data and metric-driven approach to optimizing their overall funnel. So, that being said, we nailed down their strategy in the first couple of weeks.

And, the- and once we had one funnel, I mean it literally just took about 30, 60 days just to get one funnel- like 100 percent done through strategy, to copy , to automation, to setting up their marketing and funnel dashboard with their metrics. And once they had that done, we knew that that particular funnel was generating about- it was about $24 and some change in revenue per email address. We’re like, this is awesome. Great.

Like, they made, within 90 days of running that webinar, they’d made about a quarter million dollars, and they’re like stoked. And we want to buy more traffic now, right? And so we’re like, it’s pretty sweet. You’re able to buy an email opt-in for $5 or $8, and they’re putting a dollar in and getting anywhere from, you know, $3 to $5 out. And so, that was kind of the first funnel. So when we talk about this funnel [sacking – 07:06] system, and we’re like, how do we grow revenue in this business that’s been stagnant at a couple million in revenue for several years?

Well, we thought, okay. Well, this funnel- we could do everything we came here to do some better split tests on some landing pages; to do some better split tests on some subject lines. But we’re like, you know what? That’s pretty good. I’m stoked- I’m happy with that number. Let’s get started on another funnel. And so, we built them out a whole trip wire and liquidation offer funnel on the back end where, if anybody didn’t buy on that $1000 price point of what they were selling on the webinar, we had a $100 product with a couple of different upsells on the backend.

And the reason- I’m not going to go into too much about what the pricing was, the conversion rate was on each in particular offer, because the point was is that we started with the second funnel. And then that was generated- that funnel was generating- actually, I think I can pull it up here. That funnel was generating close to about $10 in revenue per email opt-in. So, we’re like, sweet. Now we’re generating like, $30 in revenue per email opt-in that comes in.

And we basically, ove the last year, have kept on with that process We added on another free [book – 08:29] plus shipping offer. We added on another webinar funnel on top of it. This particular client- we’re like, 9 funnels deep on this bad boy. It’s like a gauntlet of a [unclear – 08:40] of a funnel, right? And it’s not like this giant funnel that we’ve overcomplicated. It’s just a bunch- it’s like, small, micro runs that we’ve been able to execute within a quick, 60- to 90-day time frame.

And when you add all these- the EPC’s over all these different funnels, and how much revenue we’re generating per email, I’ll send you over a screenshot. And you basically can see that we’re generating a little over $100- $100 and like 80 cents in revenue per email address. And it just makes it insanely easy to scale traffic a year into this particular client’s funnel because we’ve got like just amazing amounts of insight and data on how much revenue they’re making.

Charles: That’s huge. I mean, that is massive. I mean, that is- and you said something that I think most people won’t actually pick up on. It didn’t happen overnight. I mean, it literally took- let’s just say 60 days, per funnel. I think you mention about nine of them, at this point, you’ve stacked together. And honestly, at nine, I can’t see any reason to stop. I mean, and I’m sure they’re probably not. And it’s just really exciting because like you said, they already bought somebody’s pre-done magic unicorn funnels.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: And while those things, I think, have value to some extent for some people, the problem is every niche is different; every traffic source is different. There’s really not a one size that fits all to anything.

Zach: Totally.

Charles: And I think that when you try to apply a pre-done anything it usually- and honestly, like if you gave me all your funnels, I would probbly not be able to make them work, because everything is different. There’s not a cookie-cutter formula. That’s what people want, but there’s no such thing.

Zach: I do buy pre-baked cookies though. But I will not get a cookie-cutter funnel. That’s for sure.

Charles: Absolutely. Now something interesting – you made a comment about webinars. Are you all running- I mean, what’s your opinion- let’s say if somebody’s starting brand new today. They have, you know, they’ve got to figure everything out. And let’s just say that technology, as it is, they can put together Lead Pages, Click Funnel, really, Office Autopilot or Entreport – however you like to look at it – what would you suggest that people start with?

Zach: Man, I think, you know, we get this question all the time. I think [voice cuts out – 11:12] –the money these days is in the metrics. And whatever is going to get you clarity and control over your funnel metrics the fastest, is what you should be using. And sometimes that’s not easy to do if you’re using, I mean, Infusionsoft or Entreport. And a lot of these tools, they really only get you a partial view of your overall marketing funnel’s performance.

But there’s also something to be said for, just general speed of execution – getting out there and figure out your funnel metrics fast. I can’t tell you how many times when clients come to us. Not only do they have these cookie-cutter funnels, but they have something that they think is done but they don’t know if it’s good or not.

Like, and so, we’ve had people of like- wow! I have this totally complete funnel. We’re like, yeah man. That’s really only generating about $1 I revenue per email address, and you’re in the Internet marketing niche, or you’re in the financial niche. You’re going to have to do some work on your funnel. And you know, we’ll have to think through your pricing, and your offers, and everything. And so, that’s where really thinking through what we call an intelligent sales funnel strategy that’s specific to their overall business.

Charles: You’ll laugh at this, Zach. You’ll absolutely laugh. When you were telking me that I was about to wet my pants, laughing so hard. And I know this is not what people want to hear, but I’m going to be honest with you. I would, if you asked me to go into the Internet marketing niche, I would turn, rip off my shirt, and run the other way. I think of any niche, just froma pure, saturation standpoint, I think it’s just- I would not want to be in it; don’t want to be in it; do not want those leads.

Unfortunately, what we’ve found from the Internet- and I’m talking hardcore Internet marketers, not somebody using the Internet marketing, online marketing as a tool for their business, but people who only sell how to make money online – I think they’re really beginning to feel the crunch of, traffic sources are drying up for them.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: I think the cost per lead is- I know for a fact is going up. It’s getting harder to make any of that work. I truly- and I’m going to just tell you this. I don’t think that that user has the lifetime value, because they burn out so fast.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: And that’s just my take on it – just absolutely my take on it.

Zach: Yeah. Tell me how you really feel.

Charles: It’s going to be bad.

Zach: Well and the fact is that right now, if yo’re doing online marketing, you’re overwhelmed with just the amount of data, the tols, the technology, and you’re really underwhelmed with the amount of actionable insights, or metrics that you have available to you about on how your funnel is performing. Right? And so, when I started Game Changers, I didn’t want to be a funnel-building company.

There are so many Infusionsoft pewople out there, funnel experts that were like, building funnels, and they’d be like kay great. It’s done. And you know, now, go work with it. And I think that there’s so many A-player business owners that are out there doing $1M, $2M a year. They’re either stagnant, or they don’t have time to manage their funnel. And so they end up hiring someone that’s going to build it. And they turn it over to them. But then they have nobody to hand it over to once they’re done.

And so we have all these like, clients who we work with that have these templatized campaigns, but not a CEO that has time to make it all work. So, when we work with our clients, we’re managing it, kind of ongoing, month-to-month basis, optimizing it. And [unclear – 15:08] is working on a new funnel. And we’re implementing this funnel-stacking, methodology to conversions. And the effects that it’s having in terms of increasing the amount of revenue that’s being generated per email address on the funnel is amazing, and outperforming in, you know, any one maybe, in particular split test, might have been able to do.

Charles: Oh, I think you’ve hit it right on the money. Most people think a single split test on a single page is all they need. It’s kind of like you’ve just cut into- you took a chainsaw, cut out the middle of your bed, and you’re like, well, you know, I just wanted to do one thing. You know, that one thing isn’t enough to fix it. You really have to look from the entire funnel.

I mean- and I’m excited to hear that because so many people think all it takes is- and I’m not downing anybody’s product, by any stretch of the imagination. So, guys, save me the hate email. You can’t take a strategy that you’ve heard somebody else sell you and apply it. I mean, you made a comment about using a trip wire and then, you made a comment that you made $100- $100 product.

I don’t know if that trip wire is the $100 product, if it’s something else that leads to the $100 product. Don’t know. But I think the big issue is people often say, well, such and such has got a $29 product, and a $7 product. And then they copy it.

Zach: Oh yeah.

Charles: And the cost of traffic is different for everybody.

Zach: Yeah. I mean, I have funnels now that we’ve been building for 90 days. They’re generating great ROI. And they’re like, but Zach, I don’t have a low price point ticket offer. I don’t have my- a liquidation offer. I’m like, well, great. Like, maybe that might subsidize 20 percent of your trafic, or 50 percent of your traffic. But you’re already making like, putting a dollar in, you’re getting $5 out. I’m not dissing trip wires or liquidation offers by any means.

But I’m just sayng like, if it’s for a particular type of business, and I typically see if you’re spending north of you know, 20, 30 grand a month on Ad Spend, yeah. Like, you might as well invest in like, a little trip wire liquidation-type offer and save your- and subsidize 50 percent of your traffic costs. That’s going to be amazing in terms of your ROI.

But somebody who’s just getting into paid advertising, you know, it’s probably not the first thing that you need to do.

Charles: Can I get a double Amen on that? We need a double Amen. There’s so many people I see every day. Right now, somebody’s probably throwing the- I see the phone being thrown across the parking lot with your name, and my name, and a few adjectives that we can’t repeat. But I see so many people who, basically get the concept- I’ve got a free DVD, and an upsell. And it’s not working on Facebook, or Adwords, or MSN. And like the end of like, day two, they’re not breaking even – nowhere remotely close to being breaking even, and it’s al just- and you just said it.

You can do that, but, you know, let’s face it. I can’t make a $7 product break even under any stretch of the imagination. I can’t. I can’t. At one time I could. I could do it. One time it was like- you could also put up Google ads and everything worked. But, I think with the cst of traffic today, I think- and it’s not that- actually, you can still get in with a little bit of money. And if you’re a small player, if you can test and just keep refining it until it works.

It may take you a long time, but you can do that. But I think that we’re at a point where, to be able to throw something against the wall to see what works, it doesn’t work anymore. I simply don’t think-

Zach: And most people- most business owners- they don’t know what they don’t know. They don’t know what works, right? And wat they- the bottom line is they need a professional approach to building, managing, and optimizing their funnel, and more importantly, their funnel metrics. And the idea of you know, having a weekly or biweekly marketing call with your team or, whoever’s kind of managing your funnel where, it’s like, this is how much revenue you’re generating per click; or how much revenue you’re generating per email opt-in.

Here’s what your average order value is Here’s what your lead to sell conversion rate is. And here are the tactics and the funels that we need to be building to double those or triple those to accelarate your revenue growth rate. And if people would kind of switch their focus from maybe the tactics, right, that are all involved in building a funnel, but they would take more of a data driven approach. And who knows? Whether you’re just using like, doing it the old school way or whatever, it’s just having a spreadsheet in your marketing process that you’re looking at this marketing spreadsheet dashboard on a weekly basis.

And making smart, intelligent funnel decisions off of that. Or, you have, you know, a marketing funnel, dashboard-type solution that we provde to our clients that’s telling you all these metrics on a daily and weekly basis, so that it’s not really guess work as to what levers you need to be pulling to have clarity and control over that profit and revenue-generating process in your business.

Charles: And I think that’s brilliant. Because I’m going to just tell you with a spreadsheet, it’s manual It literally is- you’re the one plugging in the number and all it does is- and I’ve done this before. One time I like, plugged in the number wrong. And I was like- I was so excited. I’m like, my gosh! I should be able to buy like ten times as much trafiic. This is great. But in real life, it didn’t work that way. What’s wrong? But you know, all it takes is one number off anywhere, or a formula, or a cell being off – and you know, you’re literally just spending an entire day sitting down, calculating everything out. And it’s just-

Zach: It’s awful

Charles: – and it’s just, you know, unless you just love looking at Excel formulas, it’s not the way to go. It’s simply, you know, unless you love pivot tables and can do that kind of stuff, it’s not the way to go. Now, with that said, just looking at this, you know, creating a funnel, a.) we’ve just made- right now, a lot of people are upset, because the $7 funnel doesn’t work. We’ve all said it. You’ve all known it. You’re just finally admitting it. you know, there’s a place for that funnel.

That funnel is, basically, for us, it’s with email. We have tried to use the free DVD funnel up front. It’s not worth it. For us, we seem to do better bringing people into a webinar, just so we can get higher conversion rates. I won’t even say higher conversion rates. The conversion rates are lower than a $7 sale. But our earnings are enough that we can actually start taking a [unclear – 22:23] and say, okay. I didn’t break even. But at least I am, you know, I’m moving up the mountain.

Zach: So, what you’re saying there Charles, just so I can clarify what- for everybody, is that conversion rates are not always the most imortant thing. Revenue is the- and revenue groth is the golden metric for the health and success of your business. And I’ll take lower conversion rates, but more revenue, all- not all day long, but for most businesses, I would do that. Right?

Charles: Yes.

Zach: In some cases, you might have a strategic strategy where a customer acquisition is part of the strategic direction and you do need to do that. But, I typically always optimizing for revenue, not necessarily higher conversions. And sometimes, higher conversion rates are a path to higher revenues, don’t get me wrong. But there are multiple ways to the same result.

Charles: Oh absolutely. And I think one of the big things that people often don’t look at because they’re looking at just a small micro-segment of the funnels-

Zach: Sure

Charles: -if you’re stacking- let’s just say you’ve got four funnels. So, let’s just- to make it simple, each funnel lasts a week. First funnel – okay, maybe you’re 25, 30 percent there, breaking even. Maybe on week two, and maybe you’re getting to 40, maybe 50. Week three, maybe you’re at 60, 70. Week four, maybe you’re 80, 90, 100, or whatever the case may be.

You know, your conversion rates are [irrelevant – 23:59]. At the end of week four, you could’ve had like a 20 percent conversion on a $7 product all the way through, every week. You know, if the $7 product was the Holy Grail of business, that’s the only thing people would have. Truth of the matter is, it’s not. I mean, quite often, for us, when we pull out a $7 product, it’s only to show the market that we have relevance to them.

Zach: Yeah. And the reality is today, the money today is in the metrics, right? The money, you know, used to be in the follow up right, when you were like, cold calling people and just like dialing for dollars, right? Then the money was in the list when you could just hammer down a dozen different affiliate offers to the same list.

Charles: Yep.

Zach: But now, if you go and you copy and paste someone elses’ funnel, you don’t know the metrics behind that funnel. And even though, if it was generating you x-amount of dollars in revenus per email address, and you copied it from any, you know, funnel guru, you wouldn’t necessarily know what your traffic costs could be, and you wouldn’t necesarily know what to do with it.

And so, the fact that you have to have a passion for your business numbers and your funnel metrics. And if you know all those metris, you can invest in traffic more confidently and more consistently. And so, one thing that I get a lot when I share this story of how we’re doing this for a client is people just flat-out don’t believe us, you know? Like, you’re lying I don’t believe it.

And one thing that I want to do is, you know, we have this new webinar presentation workshop that we’re coming out with in the month of October. And we’re actually just- we’ve got a sign off from the client, where we just open up the kimono, and walk through, and share screen shots on every part of this campaign.

And we’re going to start doing this in the month of October, where you can, and register for our weekly, live webinar, where we walk you through the funnel stacking formula, and how we are generating 100-plus dollars in revenue per email address. And how, people can implement that same process and strategy in their own business.

And then, you know, see the screen shots, see the proof. And just dive into it for an hour, so you can learn it. I mean that’s- if somebody told me, you know, two years ago, how to generate $100 in revenue per email, I would’ve been like, well one, what is revenue per email and why is that important? And then, you know, how do I know that’s even good?

And now, I would’ve jumped all over that, had somebody kind of show me the path. So, I encourage everybody to check that out. And that’s- that’ll be Russ [unclear – 27:05]. He’s our marketing chief funnel architect who does that overall presentation and training. I think, it’s really for someody who’s already approaching seven-figures, and really has no idea what their, you know, marketing [funnel – 27:20] metrics are.

Charles: Most people, honestly, don’t. And I know that’s not what people want to hear, but most people are just like, I made profit. I didn’t. I mean, and the concept of- and I’ll tell you, as we’re maturing online, the smarter businesses that are healthier, that have more cash flow are able to go negative, longer. And if you look at that and you try to copy that model-

Another example, when you mentioned about getting these pre-done funnels, I think one of the biggest issues that people don’t look at- super guru xy, he comes out, and he does a product. And there’s a celebrity status around that person. So, he’s going to be able to sellit. If he had skull and crossbones on the paper- people would buy it.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Right. You know, Bob needs some money. Quick, Janet. Get the PayPal account. Let’s send a donation. That’s the kind- but when you try it, and you’re not like the well-known super, you know, mega guru expert, your numbers are completely different.

Zach: Yeah.

Charles: You know, and then, like you said, every traffic source is differerent; every niche, every key words, it- just because somebody makes $13 per lead doesn’t mean you can’t. And I think that’s where so many people- it’s just- it’s not a copy and paste scenario. Literally, in my mind, a funnel has to be built for the person, for their strength, you know, for their image – everything about them, it has to be focused on that.

Zach: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I mean, that’s exactly, you know, that’s exactly what Game Changers does. That’s exactly what we do when we take on a cliet is, you know, map it all out so that it’s intelligent for their business, right?

Charles: Absolutely.

Zach: And so yeah. I encourage everybody to just go to Game Changer Profits and check out the webinar just so you can check out some screen shots and the overall case study. It’s, by far, one of the most- the proudest, or the best funnel- or, the best funnel I’m most proud of, that we’ve worked on this year. So-

Charles: And with that, make sure you do the Tweet to get the- they’ve got a seven-figure funnel map. Make sure you do a Tweet just to get that. I’m going to tell you guys. I’m over at the site now. It looks good. It looks clean. I’ve signed up for the webinar. I wish it was like an auto-webinar that would play like, right now.

Zach: I bet you do.

Charles: But, with that said, guys head over to- just go to Game Changers. It’s the easiest way for me to put it, is to head over to It’ll be in the show notes, so you know, just swipe the image of the Media Buyer logo, and we’ll head over there together. Make sure you opt-in guys. I’m just going to tell you this.

Getting- if I had to say anything in business, which- and I will truly say this is far more important than traffic, at the end of the day, you can buy all the trafiic you want, and have all the credit card bills you want, but if you don’t have an intelligent funnel to handle it, to manage it, and the metrics to be able to look at it and say, did it work? Did it not work? It’s all just kind of a pie-in-the-sky dream.

Zach: Yep.

Charles: you know, and I’ll tell you this. Four, five years ago, it was like, so easy to make money. I mean, it’s literally it’s like- yeah, fell off the- you know, ten years ago, it was super easy to make money.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Sixteen years ago, it was like, I can’t believe people are giving me money for this. It’s really gotten a lot tougher. I mean, I will tell you hands down, and I’ve had some utterly major failures. A few things have worked successfully. And a few things have blown up- not worked. But the things that have worked, really came down to having a funnel, and literally just putting funnel after funnel after funnel after funnel and making it automated.

Because- and Zach, what do you feel about this? If somebody has no funnel. Somebody comes into the- they get an opt-in, then they’re mailing- every day they’re mailing something different for the next 60, 90 days. I mean, I think that says it all. You know, there was a time, it was really a big thing, where people were l like, oh, you don’t need auto-responders. All you need to do is send daily broadcasts of whatever is happening in your life.

Zach: Right.

Charles: Well, I think that’s really cool, and it’s nice, and maybe after they get through your sequence, you can’t split test it. Every day that went by was a day that you can’t measure, monitor, or split test. It’s like every day- and it works if you’re in some place where traffic is cheap, plentiful, and there’s no competition.

But, in today’s marketplace, I mean, I truly believe if you don’t have funnels, with an “s”, in place, you’re really just- you’re going off the deep end. And you just don’t know it yet. You’re literally driving- it’s like driving on an icy road at night, blindfolded. It may look great in Fifty Shades of Grey, but it doesn’t work on your wallet. You know? It’s going to be a disaster.

Zach: Well, Charles, man, I really appreciate you having me on. This has been a lot of fun. You’re analogies are- you’re clearly a talented marketer because any talented marketer tells great stories and has great analogies. So, thanks for, you know, blocking off [unclear – 32:31] like, 30 minutes just to share this case study with your audience and just to, you know, be asking some nice, intelligent questions. Like, I love conversations like this. So, thank you.

Charles: I appreciate it. Guys, I’m going to go ahead and get this in the show notes. And Zach, thank you so much. I really appreciate it and let’s get together again.

To learn more about Zach Johnson visit http://www.gamechangerprofits.com