Charles Kirkland: Hey, this is Charles Kirkland. I hope everybody is doing great today, or this evening, depends on where you’re at, when you’re listening to this podcast. Now, I’ve got a good friend of mine, Rick Moretti. And guys, I am slurring a little bit today. I got bit in the face by a spider – on the side of the face – so, my mouth is a little numb. Certain things aren’t working. So, I’m not drunk. I’m not intoxicated. I’m just moving slow. So, Rick, how’s it going?


Rick Moretti: It’s good man. Sounds like a little bit better than you, buddy.


Charles: I tell you the look- I always have this kind of look. So, it’s one of those things. So, first of all, tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to. I mean, you know, what do you specialize in and what have you been up to?


Rick: Yeah. I specialize in Facebook advertising. And I’ve been in the online advertising space since 2000. So, a little over 15 years now. And I was in the corporate world for about 12 of those years. And worked for the likes of AOL, Yahoo, Funny or Die, a company called Vibrant Media, doing all different forms of paid advertising, mostly on the sales side. So, I was selling to the big brands around the world – four of these big brands.


So, right around 2010 I sort of transitioned. I was still in the corporate world, but on the side I started teaching myself Facebook ads. And, you know, I really saw the opportunity there that small businesses had to, not only build a community but really, targeted with all the information that Facebook gives them that they make available to us advertisers.


So, sort of fast forward, I’ve been doing Facebook ads now for the past five years and I teach Facebook ads to entrepreneurs and small businesses. I have a couple of training courses. I have a podcast called The Art of Paid Traffic, where we talk about all forms of paid traffic, where you have been a guest twice on that show. And we of course talk a lot about Facebook ads on that show, but we also talk about all different types of paid traffic. So, it’s a lot of fun, man.


Charles: Dude, I’ll tell you. I love your podcast. I mean I remember the first time scrolling through, I’m like, the graphics are great. But all of your stuff has a very clean, professional look. And listening to the content – you’re one of the few people who I subscribe to who I want to hear on my podcast. And I’m like, why doesn’t he do more? He needs more podcasts.


Rick: I appreciate that, man.


Charles: So, I love your stuff. Now, Facebook’s changing. At the end of the day, we’re looking at an evolution probably similar to what Google had, or really, any traffic network from that standpoint. Where do you think Facebook is going; and what does that hold for small businesses, marketers, online marketers; and how do you think it’s all going to shake out?


Rick: Yeah. I mean and they’re now focusing, first and foremost, on value. You know, they want to protect the user experience at all cost. So, they’re first and foremost, they want to protect the user experience. And so, from an advertisers perspective, what that means is adding value first – focusing on value and giving people an experience where they’re able to connect with you, start a relationship with you as the advertiser.


And you as the advertiser, just giving them value, helping them out. Depending upon whatever your niche is, helping them with the form of value that they’re going to find helpful to them and their business in their everyday life. So the more that you can do that, that’s really what Facebook wants us advertisers to focus on.


Of course, we can still, you know, go into- we instill [unclear – 04:03] composing our email list and generating leads and all that stuff, but we want to make sure that we’re doing it from a perspective of, you know, not sending people directly to a sale; not sending people to, hey, just opt in for this free thing and you know, and then all of a sudden they get spammed via email. You know, it’s focusing on value first, and then building that relationship with that person, and then, getting them to your sales funnel.


Charles: It’s funny, the way you describe this is like an 180 of what I see everybody else doing. And you talked about, literally, giving value, giving content first. I mean, do you think the days of just the, you know, opt into my page and die – do you think those days are over with, or do you think it still applies? What are your thoughts on that?


Rick: I do think it still applies. I mean you could still certainly send people directly to an opt in, whether that opt in is for a free download, or a webinar registration, or whatever it might be – if you’re going to [unclear – 05:08] by Facebook’s ad policies. You know, having things like a privacy policy link on your landing page, having it be really clear both in the ad and on the landing page has to do in order to get whatever you are offering them – just being really clear in your language, having a link out to someother form of content that you have-


So basically, giving them the opportunity to, if they want to, once they land on your landing page, make sure there’s a clear opportunity for them to navigate away from the page if necessary. Facebook has cracked down on those things. So, you can still do that. You can still send people directly to a lead generation, whether it’s a landing page or whatever that might be, but you have to make sure that you’re doing it within their guidelines.


Charles: And that makes sense. I think at the end of the day I see so many people- they’re like, oh, here’s my landing page. Opt in. You know, it’s not- people aren’t excited to get an email. AOL no longer says, you’ve got an email. It’s like now you’ve got, you know, like clear out your email. It’s incredible by any stretch of the imagination.


Now, with that said, okay, so we’re saying pretty much give some content. Give value. Be explicit in what we’re doing. Now, if somebody’s brand new to Facebook and they want to get started on this, would you suggest putting out content first, or would you suggest an old-fashioned squeeze page?


Rick: I would recommend starting out with content first. And I say that in a sense of, if you’re just starting out, start to build that relationship with your ideal target audience. And if you’re just starting out, maybe you don’t have an email list yet. Or maybe you don’t have much traffic coming to your website. So, you can leverage Facebook’s [interest – 06:54] targeting, which is the- ever heard of the sterotypical type of targeting, when we think of Facebook targeting we think of what they call their interest targeting, meaning, I want to target such-and-such fan page. You know, what other kind of Facebook page that is similar to my niche or competitor in my space – that sort of thing.


So, start off by targeting that way and looking at [unclear – 07:17] people to content. And then, build that relationship with them. You can have an opt in on that page with the content – that’s totally fine. But then you can also leverage Facebook’s re-targeting where you’re building an audience of people who are coming to that content, consuming it, and then you can re-target them with relevant offers that way. So, I would start off sending people directly to content.


Charles: Oh, that makes perfect sense. So, content first. Retarget to ffers, squeeze pages, you know, anything that at that point, once that relationship’s built.


Rick: Yep. Exactly.


Charles: {Unclear – 07:53] a dating scenario. You’re not going marry me on the first date.


Rick: Right. Exactly.


Charles: Perfect


Rick: And Charles, you and I are talking actually for my show, the other day about this, is when you follow their guide lines, your ads are going to perform better. You’re going to have higher conversion rates and the performance of your ads are likely going to be performing better when you’re abiding by Facebook’s policies and following what they say. If you don’t, that’s when you’re going to run into problems where the performance isn’t as good. Your costs are higher. So, it’s better to do that and make sure that you are abiding by their policy [unclear – 08:30] results that way.


Charles: It’s funny. I think so many people think well, this is the way such-and-such, insert name. They do it, so it’s the way I’m going to do it. And the reality of it is, if the end user who doesn’t know you from Adam’s housecat, they opt in and you’re forcing them to sit through a 45-, an hour, an hour-thirty minute webinar to buy something-


Rick: Yeah


Charles: There’s a video with no controls. No nothing. I mean, an hour on the internet is like an eternity.


Rick: It is. Yeah.


Charles: you know, I’m thinking my gosh, you know, there’s so any other things I could be doing in an hour. Boom. I’m just leaving it. I think the reality of it is, the end users, they’re expecting everything to is given to them. And you know, if they want to go basically through your video, scrub through it, they want to see it. If you’ve got an offer, they want to see it. They’re actually in control of the user experience.


And you lock them, or you block them, or you give them 35 and a half exit pops, it creates that negative user experience. And the question we have to ask is, what is a user worth to Facebook? Because I would imagin if my wife- I’m no longer using Facebook. I’m like screw that. I’m not using it either. It’s a waste of my time. You know, what would be the trickle-down effect of that?


Rick: Yeah. Exactly


Charles: And, you know, and I think that’s one thing that a lot of people just don’t- your dollar or two dollar click doesn’t mean anything for them to lose maybe a person who’s equal to $500 a year – something of that nature.


Rick: Yep


Charles: Makes perfect sense. Well speaking of that, I mean, do you feel that Facebook- how do you feel Facebook really should be integrated into with the overall marketing strategy? So, if Facebook wasn’t the only thing. If you were doing potentially, ad words, or retargeting, or Twitter, or something else – how do you feel Facebook fits into that as a piece of the puzzle?


Rick I mean it fits in, especially when you start thinking about the retargeting opportunities, and you know, using it from both Facebook’s retargeting and leveraging other forms of retargeting from a traffic-driving standpoint. So, you could be driving traffic from basically up to, you know, forms of content, landing pages, whatever it might be, and then retargeting those people on YouTube, or on the Google display network, or other forms of retargeting.


And then vice versa, you could be driving traffic from other platforms and then retargeting those people on Facebook. So, Facebook, I think, has an awesome opportunity to be part of your overall holistic marketing approach and not just focusing on one platform. I was listening to one of your episodes the other day. I, unfortunately, don’t remember her name. But you guys were talking about aking sure that you learn one platform, before going onto to try to focus on five or six different platforms. And I think that that’s such a great piece of advice.


And it’s certainly relevant to Facebook ads. Because if you’re going to be doing facebooks ads, learn Facebook ads and then figure out, once you ge to know them and start to see some success with them, then you can look to incorporate, okay, how do I se them- how do I leverage them in my overall marketing funnel as just one platform. Okay?


So, then whenever I go onto another platform, how do I leverage Facebook again, from that retargeting standpoint, both from a sending traffic standpoint and retargeting on other platforms, and then other platforms driving to your content or your landing page, and then retargeting them on Facebook?


Charles: And that makes all the sense, I mean, it’s brilliant from that standpoint, because I think a ot of people look at it as a single thing if that makes sense. It’s like oh, well this is the one thing. This is the one event. And the reality of it- and this is just in my mind, at the end of the day,it really has to integrate in with, okay – if you came from Google, you visited my page. Well then, you should be retargeted in Twitter. You should get retargeting in Facebook. You should really get, I would call it a holistic experience.


Rick: Yep


Charles: And I think interestingly enough, and you made a good point earlier when you talked about just that user experience, if the user is P.O.’ed at you, if they have a bad experience at you, your site, something like that, it doesn’t really make a difference at that point, in anything else you do. It’s like, well I had a bad user experience. I’m not going back. And you literally, burn that bridge to make money with them forever.


And at the end of the day, I could just tell you, that completely- and I’ve done that before. Unfortunately, I’m really good at screwing things up. That is a great way to find a lack of profits, sales, and leads. Now if we were to turn around and just say okay. We realize Facebook has value. We need to be involved in it. From a lead generation standpoint, can we just use the same ad we use in Google? I mean, little Johnny has poison ivy. Can I put a poison ivy ad in Google, or would you take a diferent approach to creating those ads inside of Google?


Rick: Very much so. I would look- [unclear – 13:37] I would not be using the same- like you could use the same type of, how should I say this, sort of approach, but the ad on Facebook is going to look very differently. And Facebook does not want you discussing personal attributes of it’s users. So, you can’t say something like, have poison ivy? And then have your solution for it, because you’re insinuating that that use has poison ivy. I mean even though that’s likely true, or it could be true I should say, you can’t insinuate that.


You can’t talk about a personal attribute of somebody. Can’t you say something like overweight? Lose 30 pounds in the next x-amount of time. You can’t say stuff like that. Whereas on Google, and I don’t do many ad words, so I’m not fully up on all the policies there, but you can get away with a lot more stuff from an ad copy perspective as opposed to what you can do on Facebook.


So, yeah. I mean, obsiously the solution is going to be the same, but you’ve got to approach the ad copy and how you’re talking to your ideal target customer differently when it comes to Facebook.


Charles: And that makes perfect sense. Because like in Google, they’re actively searching for the solution to the problem.


Rick: Yeah. Exactly.


Charles: And in Facebook, we’re pretty much saying, surprise I’m here!


Rick: We’re interrupting. Yeah.


Charles: You know, so it’s definitely a different user experience on that. Now, one other question- and I’ve got tons of questions for you. But one of the questions I really want to get to is how important is this whole Facebook tracking? I mean, do I have to use their conversion tracking? It looks wonky. It looks different. I mean, do I need tracking, period? Can I get away with nothing?


Rick: You do. You do need Facebook’s tracking for a couple different reasons. Number one, I mean yeah. You could use Google analytics, for example. You know, or other- a third party platform, but- and that will tell you a number of conversions and so on But you need to use Facebook’s tracking so that Face- [unclear – 15:46] for whatever conversion that you’re looking for.


Because if you’re not using that; if you’re just solely relying on Google analytics or whatever it might be, yeah, you’re going to have the information, but you’re not allowing Facebook to optimize for that conversion. So for example, if I’m trying to get a webinar registration, and I have my conversion pixel on the thank you page after they register, when you’re using Facebook’s pixel like that, you’re telling facebok to optimize for that specific conversion.


So, Facebook’s algorithm, and that’s running in the background, is going to be showing your ad. Once it gets some information for you, once it gains some logic there, it’s going to start to show your ad to more people in that target audience who are most likely to convert based on the information that it’s getting from that conversion tracking pixel. So, you do need to be using, for the best results, you do need to be using Facebook’s conversion pixels.


Charles: Oh, that makes sense. So, let’s say we’re jumping in, brand new. We’ve got our content. We’ve got our squeeze page. We’ve got conversion pixels. The next thing I’m going to ask, and this may be one of those questions like, no, Charles. Don’t ask such a dumb question. Let’s say we do something. We screw up. I mean are we going to get our entire account banned? Or, is it more of a- you did something wrong, or do you- how does that work? Do you like initially get like you’re in a little trouble. Fix it. Or do they say, you’re a low-down, black cat spammer, out of [unclear – 17:15]?


Rick: It depends on what it is. It depends on what you’re doing. You know? If your image has more than 20 percent text on it, and you’ve just done it a couple times. They’re just going to disapprove the ad, and tell you that that’s the issue. And you have to just fix it. And then you can resubmit it for approval. Not a big deal.


Now, each time you have an ad disapproved, or Facebook has an issue, they’re sort of keeping track of all those things. So, and we don’t know over what period of time or how many of those things you have to get on your account before they’ll slap you with a  shut down or anything like that, but just know that Facebook is keeping track of those types of things.


Charles: Speaking of that, talking about shut downs and slaps, let’s go ahead and move to the user. {aside conversation about disconnection}


One of the things we want to talk- but it’s like, okay. So, is my user from 18 to 65 with Visa, MasterCard, American Express, PayPal? Or do I kind of need to be a little more specific when I’m writing my ads?


Rick: What do you mean by that so I can give you the best answer?


Charles: Sure. Let’s just say we’ve got a product. Let’s say we’re selling outdoor hiking boots for men. Can we just pretty much say any guy from 18 to 65? Or can we say male/female? Or do you think we’d be better off narrowing those down to like maybe a certain demographic, a certain age grou, a certain life-style?


Rick: Yeah. The more targeted you can get, the better. Yeah. It obviously comes down to you knowing who your exact target customer is, and knowing as much about that person as possible. And that’s the beauty of Facebook ads is that you can get so targeted. So, leverage it.


You know, get as targeted as you can can so you can reach that target customer. So, yeah. So, the more you can narrow it down, the better. I think that you know, you don’t want to get too, too small you know, where your audience size is 50 people, but you do want- the more targeted that you can get, the better.


Charles: It’s funny that you say that. We recently had some- I know this is weird. I would always break out my mobile campaigns, different from my desktop campaigns.


Rick: Yeah.


Charles: I always break them out. Last month, we’ve just started running them together. And weirdly enough, we’re getting better results.


Rick: Are you?


Charles: Yes. And it doesn’t make sense because logically, they should all be different. There should be a comple, different user experience on the iPad, than an iPhone, than an Android, than a desktop. And it’s weird. Hands down, I would’ve told you no, it would not work. Don’t do it. But we’re getting better results, lumping them together.


Rick: Interesting. So, you’re not seeing that like one of them is driving the cost up? Are you seeing that?


Charles: No. we’re not. That’s the weird part about it. Because when we broke them apart into individual iPhone, iPad, Android, desktop. Then we went to right-hand side desktop. We, you know, the numbers were okay. And I’m like, just screw it. Lump them together. They’re good enough. Created a brand new campaign, lumped together. They did better.


Rick: Interesting.


Charles: Which to me is completely weird, and it contradicts everything I’ve ever taught; my tests and resutls. So, I don’t know if I hit just an anomoly and it just worked? But it worked. I don’t have an answer for it. And I’ll tell you, I’m still completely confused by it to this day.


Rick:  Yeah, man. I think that’s a good lesson in that, you know, ven though you’re going along, and you’re running your campaign in one way, and maybe seeing some results that you’re happy with. It’s always good to start testing out different ways of just setting up the campaign. Like, you don’t have to change any of the parameters. Maybe the set up is a little bit different, and that might give you better results. And what you’re talking about, Charles, is a perect example of that. you know.


And the good thing about it, too, is that Facebook’s reporting does a very good job, like you can break out the placement and find out exactly which one is performing the best. So, if there is one sort of bad apple in the group, if you will, you are able to go back, and take that out, and focus, and optimize more towards the better performing placements.


Charles: Oh absolutely. And the one thing that we’ve been using, we’ve been playing with Ad Espresso. I’ve been a huge [Cory – 21:59] fan forever. He did their reporting to Ad Espresso, a little more visual for me. I can tell you our ROI did go up, I think mainly, because I could make better judgement calls on the reporting. But you know, interestingly enough, like, I’ve always thought like looking at our existing buyer list, they’re 45 to 55. That’s who I’ve always, mainly targeted.


And all of a sudden, that demographic, the price is going up. And I’m like what’s wrong? What’s wrong? And it hit me. Elections. We have to fight the conservative male, usually our buyer, conservative males, 45 up. And I think we just have to fight like the Donald Trumps, the- whoever the politician of the day is. I think that’s causing our- and I know it’s weird, but I think that’s causing our price to go up- or our costs per conversion.


Rick: Well, I don’t think that’s weird at all, because, I mean, I love that you’re aware of that. You know what I mean? You’re aware of, okay, you know what? I’m noticing my costs go up. And you have it down to- you know exactly who your buyer is from an age range and a demographic. So you can look at, okay. Why would that demographic and age rage- what else is going on in the world that could be competing with my targeting, here? So, I think that’s great that you’re noticing that.


Charles: So, it’s just one of those things where, you know, little details like that  like, one of the age brackets- we’re at $3.30 for a webinar lead. Another bracket, we’re at $17 and change. Same ad. Different age bracket. Same group of devices.


Rick: Oh really?


Charles: It’s a learning experience.


Rick: Yeah.


Charles: And I just think like you said, and the problem is, if you’re not deep into it, looking at that – you wouldn’t know that historically, the other age groups has been better.


Rick: Yeah. Exactly.


Charles: Dude. It’s a learning experience. Well, I don’t want to go ahead and keep you too much longer. Anything you’d like to give us before we wrap up? And where can we find out more about Rick?


Rick: Rick is my website. Hop on the email list there, the great [unclear – 24:09] to get information from me and start to build a relationship. Would love to do that with you. Also, The Art of Paid Traffic is the podcast we’re talking about before the normal iTunes, Stitcher, whatever you’re listening to podcasts, you’ll be able to find it there.


charles kirkland
charles kirkland

Charles is a walking, talking, networking blend of credibility and know-how. Raised in a working class family, he combined a tenacious work ethic and keen sense of curiosity to usher him over one hurdle after another.